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Author
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Topic: Where the fuck is PROZAC?
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LyKcantropen
VoivodFan
Member # 162
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posted November 11, 2003 14:58
    
Man I hate this section... but this has to be said.KK, when you say "you're not studying them with an open mind", neither are you. You've already made up your mind, then quote those sources to persuade others. There is irrefutable evidence about the huge figures of the deaths from the holocaust. Hell, much of it comes from the perpetrators of the acts themselves! Add into this the fact that the Jews have been BLAMED and VICTIMISED by EVERYONE throughout history. Just for example, the "Pogroms" in Russia, as well as the various examples of the middle-ages, where whenever something went bad, it was blamed on the Jews. Now, I am not saying that the situation in Israel is right, or that the history of the Israelites makes their oppression of the Palestinian people alright, quite the reverse. However, you have to see both sides of the coin. Aside from the terrorism, there have been several military invasions of Israel, over the years. The current occupation of the Palestinian territories actually stems from those invasions of Israel. Both sides truly are as bad as each other, with their terror tactics and views that 'violence is the only way'. The Israelis have to realise that they have to respect the Palestinian rights to govern and control their own country, and respect the human rights of the people of that region. The Palestinians need to realise that their constant acts of violence towards Israel do not solve anything, that the longer they profess to want to "push the Jews back into the sea", the longer they will be under that occupation. Both sides have to back down, and take a serious look at what is going wrong, what has been going wrong for years. Is that going to happen? Looks unlikely at present. As for other issues in this and other threads: -Israel is behind 9/11: What the fuck? Israel has bugger-all to gain from a terrorist attack on their main ally. Next you'll say Sharon shot JFK.  -Kosher products are a big Jewish Conspiracy: I think this goes into the "What the fuck?" bin. It's like the little 'suitable for Vegetarians' mark. You don't complain about a "Vegetarian tax"? I know, let's wage war on Vegetarianism!  -The Whole Marxism-Thing: Now, I'm not going to take the route other people did here. First off, There is Marxism in theory, and Marxism in practise. Don't confuse Marx's theories with the Fascist dictatorships that Communism evolved into. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I do not think there is a single 'Communist' country that Marx would have recognised as Comunist. Ironic, isn't it, that the most radical left-wing ideas got turned into the most radical right-wing practise? Only without the efficiency. Communism in practise was just Fascism with a slightly different wig. But anyway. I'm not a Marxist by any means, but don't dismiss someone as a "crazy Commie loon" because they have those beliefs. -Science vs. Religion: Science. Yes, it's a belief system, but one based on fact rather than superstition and 'faith'. -Right is Better than Left Because X: Sorry, don't buy that. A lot of things that are blamed on "pinko Liberals" have nothing to do with them at all. The "All Liberals are deluded conspiracy-theorists, not living in the real world" line... that's crap. Being Liberal means you look for the best way to resolve things, for everyone. Looking to PROGRESS the human race, our beliefs, systems. To ADAPT and to find the best path for our future as inhabitants on this planet. Why does that seem such a bad thing for people? On the other hand, conservatives try to do exactly the same thing, but with the perspective that change is bad, which sometimes it is. Both look for the best route for everyone. Don't use bad examples of one to say that the other is better! They both have strengths and weaknesses in different situations. This is probably my longest and worst fucking post ever. No offence to anyone, I hope we're all mature enough to respect each other's views here, just stating what I think on a few of these issues. Bye bye now.
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272
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posted November 11, 2003 16:35
quote:
Originally posted by KingKula:
Some have stated they lost respect for others after reading what was posted in here.
It is unfortunate to be so immature.
(That is not directed at you Lyc.)
Yes Kula that is correct, I did. And I stand by it for as long as you peddle the revisionist theory about the Holocaust. Far too many people, including those whom utterly detested the Jews and stand to gain nothing out of doing so, corroborate the fact that we are talking a seven figure number here, not the ludicrously small numbers touted by the sites, some of which you have listed, which seem to want to blame Jewishness for everything that is wrong with the planet. Read lync's post and ditto me on it. And no, Lync it wasn't a shit post, far from it  I just wonder where your logic comes from because it is a good thing to question, no doubt about it. I do it all the time as many do here. For instance you rightly pointed out on another thread that the Kennedy assassination was not Oswald. I agree, never could have been from all the forensic evidence I have seen; ever seen a simple rifle round take half a skull out, and turn corners? My problem here is that you question events which have so much overwhelming evidence in their favour, that only those looking for an excuse to discredit them would actually believe it. Hex, the reason for suggesting the link was because much of the revisionist theory about the Holocaust is touted by far right groups. I would hope Kula would have more sense than to be an out and out Nazi, which I am sure he isn't. I just find it strange he seems to have more in common with the like of anus.com contributors than with many of us here, especially concerning this issue. -------------------- Hail Santa...
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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6
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posted November 11, 2003 17:37
lol! Actually, Knicker, that wasnt directed at you either, but since you own up to it, ok.No...I am not a Nazi. Far from it. I find it amazing how you people can become so upset over the Jewish trajedy, yet pass off
the slaughter of Iraqi Citizens as "Doing the right thing." Dead is Dead no matter who you are! I demand that we set up Memorials to all the people the British, Americans and Jews have slaughtered!
PLUS!....I demand that Reparations with no end in sight be paid to the families! Why are the Jews receiving all this sympathy and not the others that were killed?
Ask yourself that question.
The awnser is...Its all just what i mentioned above.
A Billion Dollar Industry.
Making money off the memories of a select few dead. You want to honor them? Let them rest in peace!
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272
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posted November 11, 2003 19:08
The thing is Kula there is a distinct difference here.When civillians are killed in action by our forces (as will happen in any conflict) it is by accident, not design. We don't want to kill civillians and I regret every single one, as do the military because the civilian's confidence in their ability to deliver is paramount. Without it they are far more likely to lose. What made the Nazis different is that they set up a policy to systematically eliminate the Jews from society, then eventually history. Auschwitz is living testimony to this. The Ghettos, where they were given just 300 calories a day to live on were witnessed by tens, possibly hundreds of thousands, and many gave testimony to this effect. The hoarding up to send to the death camps, stripping them of all their possessions in the process was also witnessed by tens of thousands of people and the Holocaust survivors are STILL trying to get what is theirs from the Swiss banks it was deposited in! When a Jew died it was just another dead body to get rid of; an inconvenience. Jews were less than worthless in Nazi Germany; they were regarded as subhuman. This is not the case with our mission in Iraq. We have given them freedom some will never have seen before. We want the ordinary people to have their country back and to govern it for themselves. And the same goes for the military; yes we are still engaged in conflict and we are killing military personnel. But that's war and we are taking casualties too. But the long term aim for the allies is to retrain them, to give them a better purpose than to do Saddam's dirty work. You cannot compare the two because totally different mentalities are at work. Israel? Read the paragraph in Lync's post about it and I agree with that; at this time there is blame on both sides and neither seems to want to step back and take a more measured view. But the bottom line here Kula is that we remember because it happened under our very noses, and the true scale of it was only apparent after the war. People remember in Europe because they have relatives who were either soldiers or prisoners in that time and witnessed it for themselves first hand. Stalin was a truly awful man and is easily the worst in the numbers game, but in the end his killing spree was indiscriminate, based on a growing paranoia that plots were being hatched to remove him from power. Hitler was different. He focused the worst excesses of his policies onto just one group of people. He removed their rights as citizens in lands many of them regarded as home and many had spent their entire lives in. He made them objects of ridicule, then a source of blame for all that was wrong with Germany. He forced them from their homes to live out peasant existences in ghettos and took everything they had. But most chillingly of all he and the people that shaped policy within the Nazi party eventually regarded them as a nuisance that had to be removed from history...forever. This is what is so awful about it, and for those who managed to escape with their lives they will have the scars of seeing their own people killed in front of their eyes, some in the most truly awful ways, for no better reason than the fact they were Jewish for the rest of their lives. To be honest the reparations thing does not bother me one bit. Wrestle with it if you wish, but I'm not concerned. The whole of Continental Europe turned on the Jews at some stage during WWII, so those families deserve some recompense for the huge suffering inflicted upon them. We may be still paying nearly 60 years on, but if I remember rightly that was the deal wan't it? And if that is so then we must honour it. -------------------- Hail Santa...
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annki8
VoivodFan
Member # 388
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posted November 15, 2003 12:38
quote:
Originally posted by KingKula:
lol! Actually, Knicker, that wasnt directed at you either, but since you own up to it, ok...........I demand that we set up Memorials to all the people the British, Americans and Jews have slaughtered!
PLUS!....I demand that Reparations with no end in sight be paid to the families!............Its all just what i mentioned above............A Billion Dollar Industry.you want to honor them? Let them rest in peace!
Think it was last week in the local paper; " Nazis used the polish non-jews as forced labour. He recently got aprox. 7000 US dollars for his sufferings during WW II. That is what a human being is worth. 7000 US dollars.. he's got no one left, everybody in his family died in concentration camps. Add: King Kula is right; it is a Billion Dollar Industry! -------------------- Peace!
Annki
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annki8
VoivodFan
Member # 388
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posted November 15, 2003 18:22
quote:
Originally posted by KingKula:
........I also hope that in the future, murdered Human Beings arent used for a "Memorial
Profit-Making Industry" as Israel has done for the several-hundred-thousand of theyre own
who were murdered in that tragedy.
Hi King Kula. here is the link to the site, it is in swedish, [http://www.arbetarbladet.se/sokindex.html] it is about Marian Steipen, a polish catholic, he was used as forced labour in Germany. After 60 yrs he gets "paid" for a ruined life.
///Quote from the source (in swedish)
Rätt - efter 60 år
Marian Stepien var slavarbetare i Tyskland • Nu får han ersättning
.................end of quote///
The holocaust did happen. There were not only those who were born into "jews" who ended up in concetration camps.
I did hear you across the sea
Take care King Kula! Add: //I also hope that in the future, murdered Human Beings arent used for a "MemorialProfit-Making Industry"// This is what I hope for too.
Useful link: www.indymedia.org Take care! -------------------- Peace!
Annki
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Planetary Eulogy
VoivodFan
Member # 436
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posted April 15, 2004 09:47
quote:
Originally posted by Kane:
[QB]Since you included me in that little quote, I figure I ought to at least clarify something for the hundreth time - and the last. Any political back-and-forth between me and KK was always a respectful disagreement on views. My proof of that is every single post in this forum up until his comments on the Holocaust. To say I've "insulted Kula whenever I had a chance" is plain wrong. The only thing I ever did was to ask for him to back up his words. Once he showed his true colors (regarding the number of Jewish dead in the Holocaust), I reserved no further respect for him. I'm not going to kiss the ass of someone who has that mindset., life is WAY too short for that. It wasn't a case of insulting someone because he simply disagreed with some of my views of world politics. I'll break it down. He opposes the state of Israel. Okay, fine. I'm don't support Israel OR the Palestinians. There are many innocents being screwed over by bull-headed leadership of both sides. I have no problem with someone having the opinion that one side is just and the other is not - I don't agree, but that's life. Then he furthers his point of view on Israel with claims that they play up the fact that they were victimised by the Nazi regime by falsely inflating the number of their dead. While that may not offend ever fiber of your good conscience, it does mine. It's asinine. It pisses on the memories of every victim of those camps.
That may be the case, but it is a reasonable question to ask, given that the "textbook" account of the Holocaust dead has already been revised downward twice (until the 60's, most texts fixed the Jewish dead at 11-12 million, revised down to 10 million until the early 80's, after which the current figure of 6 million became the standard, a figure of 4 million or so has recently been bandied about in academic circles, and may very well become the new figure in the next 15 years or so). These are still enormous figures, but the way in which they continue to be revised downward over time ought to give you pause, particularly given that the primary source for estimates of the death total in the extermination camps is are records and estimates kept and undertaken by the Soviet NKVD (not exactly history's most trustworthy organization). Eyewitness and survivor accounts are not particularly useful in establishing actual bodycounts, and the Western allies never had access to any of the extermination camps, which were captured by Soviet troops. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with someone questioning the official accounts of the Holocaust, unless they have a vested interest in perpetuating the story as it is now told.
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Slaytanic
VoivodFan
Member # 28
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posted April 15, 2004 10:13
Prozak attends now as neoclassical, or Planetary Eulogy, and is in need of money. Check out his sale-post at the trade part of the forum.And say "no thanks, good luck". He will appreciate it. -------------------- "Forty-five moments of perfection translated through a cautionary escape into the perils of the mundane, the inherent entropy in ultimate order, and the potential threats of eternal, unchecked apathy in civilization; all cloaked in musical expression so thoughtful, creative and forward thinking that almost a quarter-century later, few can even comprehend it, much less match it." (autothrall)
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272
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posted April 15, 2004 18:46
Yes, but Mr Eulogy, my time with your pals on anus.com showed me that the major 'thinkers' on that board are only interested in having the Jews removed from history anyway. So if you don't mind I will take no lectures about what is historically correct from anybody on that site.And yes, I do believe anus.com is falling on hard times. This is their classic trick to lure members to their board so they can claim to have the 'widest webring'. Well I will admit; they truly have the widest rings... -------------------- Hail Santa...
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272
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posted April 16, 2004 13:38
Critical examination is one thing. However, I would suggest that your approach to this particular subject is biased towards the lowest end of the revisionist estimates - I saw an estimate of just 48 on one website. This is pure insult.To be honest It will be difficult to collate accurate data on this because the Nazis did their utmost to destroy the existence of these people completely - possessions, identities, the whole works. In any event the fact remains that the Nazis drew up a policy of extermination for the Jews, built the infrastructure to carry this out, and came pretty close to succeeding. Genocide of this kind is abhorrent, regardless of the victims, the Hutus aggression against the Tutsis in Rwanda is a particular example. What concerns me about the Nazi's attempt against the Jews is that people like Prozak, and his little cohorts on anus.com belittle it. Their belief is that it was justified, and I would also suggest, they were disappointed it didn't succeed. Therefore I will conclude they are far more likely to sympathise with revisionist versions of the Holocaust, and therefore are easily as biased as they accuse me of being. -------------------- Hail Santa...
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Planetary Eulogy
VoivodFan
Member # 436
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posted April 16, 2004 14:43
quote:
Originally posted by Knickerzohnonnof:
Critical examination is one thing. However, I would suggest that your approach to this particular subject is biased towards the lowest end of the revisionist estimates
Eh, my personal inclination is to believe that the numbers were enormous, perhaps not on the scale of the Stalinist or Maoist genocides, but certainly on par with the "Killing Fields" of Khmer Rouge Cambodia. quote:
I saw an estimate of just 48 on one website. This is pure insult.
Woefully inaccurate perhaps, but how is it an "insult?" Again, what is your dog in this fight. quote:
To be honest It will be difficult to collate accurate data on this because the Nazis did their utmost to destroy the existence of these people completely - possessions, identities, the whole works.
That seems to be a reasonable assumption. quote:
In any event the fact remains that the Nazis drew up a policy of extermination for the Jews, built the infrastructure to carry this out, and came pretty close to succeeding.
A probability? Yes. A "fact?" No. There are too many questionable elements regarding both documentation and physical evidence of the death camp system for me to accept the received tradition as "fact." I have no doubt whatsoever that the National Socialist regime operated a system of labour and internment camps under absolutely horrendous conditions, in which hundreds of thousands or even millions perished, but whether there was a deliberate program of extermination is to my mind far less certain. quote:
Genocide of this kind is abhorrent
I suppose, if you're into moralism, that this sort of statement makes sense. Frankly, to me it depends entirely on how and why you pursue the course of genocide. If the end result is a better, healthier world where people live better, healthier lives, I have no objection, even if it requires certain, ah, demographic realignments.
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272
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posted April 19, 2004 17:11
Played Kula.If you like the guy's politics so much go ver there and stay there!!!  -------------------- Hail Santa...
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Slaytanic
VoivodFan
Member # 28
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posted April 19, 2004 17:14
quote:
Originally posted by Number 6:
Planetary Eulogy....You are correct. Viva le Prozak!
Good, no one is missing anymore. Viva le trolls! -------------------- "Forty-five moments of perfection translated through a cautionary escape into the perils of the mundane, the inherent entropy in ultimate order, and the potential threats of eternal, unchecked apathy in civilization; all cloaked in musical expression so thoughtful, creative and forward thinking that almost a quarter-century later, few can even comprehend it, much less match it." (autothrall)
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posted April 16, 2004 13:58
