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Author
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Topic: Evolution
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X-D
VoivodFan
Member # 3
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posted January 19, 2005 17:02
    
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According to a Gallup Poll conducted in November, only 35% of us (The USA) believe that Darwin's theory is supported by evidence. Another 35% say evolution isn't supported by evidence and 29% don't know enough to say.
Both National Geographic and Discover Magazine have had Evolution cover stories in the last few months, both of which site the above poll as a source of concern. Apparently much of the science community is more than a little troubled about the general population's apparent ignorance concerning Darwin's work and the subsequent developments in the study of evolution. Both good articles and recommended reading. Here's a bit from the Feb. 2005 Discover Magazine: Testing Darwin And from the more in-depth article from National Geographic (which is excellent IMO): Was Darwin Wrong? So, what do you all think of this? -------------------- I am a robot... bleep blop bloop
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LyKcantropen
VoivodFan
Member # 162
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posted January 19, 2005 17:12
I think there are a lot of confused people who don't understand what the theory of evolution says, how it works, and exactly what (and how much) evidence we have to support it. Also, after all, America is a very religious country - and especially brimming with intensely literalist religious schools of thought, which are by their very nature anti-scientific. So it's not surprising.Not just America, either - I went to a Church of England primary school, like a lot of people in my country. Not even the barest mention was given to evolutionary theory, not even an introduction in little-kiddy terminology. However, we had tonnes of "Christian science" thrown at us from the word go. As a question, does anyone here, American or otherwise, think that "alternative creation theories" should be taught alongside Evolutionary theory? The new "intelligent design" theory that's all the rage among religious pseudo-scientists recently, for example.
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X-D
VoivodFan
Member # 3
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posted January 28, 2005 20:19
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Originally posted by hex:
I'd say people who try to make a new "atheistic religion" out of Darwinism, are as stupid as religious stubborns who totally deny it.
True enough. It is in fact against everything scientific method is about. Like any true science, there is plenty left to understand, prove, expand upon, and connect, and that's a beautiful thing. I would also agree with Hatross that, yes, we are special, but not because some omnipotent being made us this way, but because we have developed the intelligence to begin to understand things of this nature, communicate about it, and build a society that records and preserves this knowledge for future generations to build upon. I am not entirely against religion, but it saddens and frightens me to hear that so many people still take this book, which I consider more of a guide to living than anything else (and an ancient one at that), in such a literal sense. By the way, if anyone is interested in conducting some evolution experiments on their PC, the Avida software discussed in the Discover article is freely available at the link below. http://devolab.cse.msu.edu/ One last thing... Why is it so hard for people to accept the likely possibility, not just that may share ancestral origins with present day ape populations, but that we are in fact apes ourselves? -------------------- I am a robot... bleep blop bloop
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272
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posted January 29, 2005 07:40
religion is the 'science' that requires no proof. Science has always had to prove any theory it has created and, while some are not 100% proven, Darwin is an example, I think the evidence is somewhat compelling. I always think of religious hawks as people who are so short sighted that they can't see beyond the confines of their own lifespan. In my opinion God oes not exist, nor does the Devil, and therefore heaven and hell do not exist either - they are merely control instruments used to bring the congregation into line, so to speak. Religion is as corrupt as the Government that controls it and in reality has no answers to our Earth's history.One final point - if you said all that 500 years ago you would be burnt at the stake and classed as a heretic. By contrast science proves or disproves theories by argument, experiment and trial. I think that shows who are the peaceful, open minded people of our planet. -------------------- Hail Santa...
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schroeder
VoivodFan
Member # 5
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posted January 29, 2005 07:43
WOW!!! Finally a reason to look into the Tech-Manip section of this forum!!!I'm a true believer in evolution but there is obviously more to read about than what I already know and assume. When I get a chance I'll check out those links. I completly agree with X-D's last statemant about the bible... I don't believe in God but the overall concept of the book, is to treat people fairly as you would want to be treated. There's stories that teach good lessons, but that's it... 'stories'. It's too bad so many relegions use the Bible for power and to create hatred against those who don't believe in it like they do. A very interesting topic. "I'll be back" It also interesting to read others ideas on this. -------------------- yawn
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LyKcantropen
VoivodFan
Member # 162
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posted January 29, 2005 08:45
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I am not entirely against religion, but it saddens and frightens me to hear that so many people still take this book, which I consider more of a guide to living than anything else (and an ancient one at that), in such a literal sense.
Agreed. I've always seen the "ideal" of religion as being a lifestyle more than anything. Probably why I have a soft spot for Buddhism, because that's practically all it is - a lifestyle with accompanying guidelines. The problem is that a religious teaching is very hard to shift. With a scientific theory, if it's wrong, it's wrong - we move on and adapt. Religion can't do that easily. So when you have complete bullshit like "the Earth was made in seven days" and "you aren't allowed to enjoy sex" and "thou shalt not eat shellfish", then the indoctrinated cling to it rabidly. Religion is "divinely inspired", so it can *never* admit that it can be wrong. Even though a lot of it is pure lunacy. As to why it's hard to accept that we can be apes? Probably because of superficial differences. We consider ourselves "intelligent" and always pour scorn on "stupid" animals (when intelligence is nothing more than the mental ability to adapt to and manipulate our surroundings - it certainly isn't maths or spelling!). We see they look different, so they must be different entirely. Also, it's a prime factor of religion and philosophy to think of humans as "better" than animals, to the extent that we recoil in horror at the idea that we *are* animals.  I also agree with Hex. Any scientist who claims to know all the answers, or even claims that we *can* have all the answers is clearly wrong. Evolution *is* a flawed theory - but the point is that it is one that we can, and are, working to improve.
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Slaytanic
VoivodFan
Member # 28
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posted January 31, 2005 08:23
I agree with Schroeder, this is the best topic yet in the Tech Manip.Just like the recent discoveries about the space, the big-bang and what existed before it, there's still a lot of things to be discovered about what are we and where we come from. That said, I think Darwinism is, at least, in the right path. The Bible pictures just a phase of human history, not only religion-wise, but also social-wise, with all the beliefs and behaviours of that time. The main point of Genesis is, whatever is the way the world (and the universe) was created, there is a superior force behind it. Are we apes? I dunno, I'd rather go with Lyc and think we grew up alongside them and all the other species. Anyway, if evolutionism is proven to be 100% correct, we all came from the same first living being, so that may not be wrong at all. -------------------- "Forty-five moments of perfection translated through a cautionary escape into the perils of the mundane, the inherent entropy in ultimate order, and the potential threats of eternal, unchecked apathy in civilization; all cloaked in musical expression so thoughtful, creative and forward thinking that almost a quarter-century later, few can even comprehend it, much less match it." (autothrall)
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schroeder
VoivodFan
Member # 5
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posted February 03, 2005 08:04
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Originally posted by X-D:
So then, no one here is in support of teaching creation thoery in schools as a credible alternative to evolution?
i think evolution and creation should both be taught at schools, but not just the Christian based creation mumbo jumbo, it should encompass all different forms of religious ideas. If you are going to teach one, than you should teach them all (at least the basic ideas) or don't teach any. You can't harm someone by giving them more info to learn. It just gives them more to think about and more options to choose from. There should be a class on all relegions and a separate class on evolution. Mythology and Science. If I would choose to believe in a God, than I think I'd go for the whole Greek Mythology thing where there was a bunch a specialist immortals that controlled and were responsible for different things. At least that way they's all have some other Gods to hang with, play ball with, or start up a band with  later primates, gotta go to work.... wish I was a chimp today  -------------------- yawn
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Slaytanic
VoivodFan
Member # 28
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posted February 03, 2005 08:16
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Originally posted by Lycanthropy:
Actually, what I said was that we are apes (or at least primates), just that we didn't evolve "from" apes. We're not a "superior" form of ape, just a different one.
You gotta decide whether we are or aren't apes. An ape who didn't evolve "from" apes? Contradictory. Anyway, I may have been misunderstood (probably due to my own language limitations), but that's exactly what I tried to point out: we're just a different form of beast than apes. quote:
Originally posted by Knickerzohnonnof:
In my opinion the idea of a grand creator is so preposterous that I cannot even consider it. Either that or 'God' has the most sadistic sense of humour in existence.
Well, the idea of things coming from nothing and heading to nothing is just as preposterous. Plus, don't blame 'God' for mankind's faults. We all have our own free will, don't we? Otherwise, we'd all be living in "1984" or something. -------------------- "Forty-five moments of perfection translated through a cautionary escape into the perils of the mundane, the inherent entropy in ultimate order, and the potential threats of eternal, unchecked apathy in civilization; all cloaked in musical expression so thoughtful, creative and forward thinking that almost a quarter-century later, few can even comprehend it, much less match it." (autothrall)
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LyKcantropen
VoivodFan
Member # 162
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posted February 03, 2005 09:51
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You gotta decide whether we are or aren't apes. An ape who didn't evolve "from" apes? Contradictory.
That's not contradictory at all. "Evolving from apes" would be contradictory, as it would indicate that we aren't apes anymore. We are apes, just a different kind of ape (hominid) to Orangutans, Chimps etc. That's three times I've said this. quote:
Well, the idea of things coming from nothing and heading to nothing is just as preposterous.
Hardly. What's the purpose of life? We come from nothing, and go to nothing. Humanity is merely gifted with the wonderful ability to make something of the gap between birth and oblivion.
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X-D
VoivodFan
Member # 3
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posted February 03, 2005 13:47
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Originally posted by schroeder:
i think evolution and creation should both be taught at schools, but not just the Christian based creation mumbo jumbo, it should encompass all different forms of religious ideas. If you are going to teach one, than you should teach them all (at least the basic ideas) or don't teach any. You can't harm someone by giving them more info to learn. It just gives them more to think about and more options to choose from.There should be a class on all relegions and a separate class on evolution. Mythology and Science.
Hmm... I think I entirely agree with you Schroeder. However, feel it's important to clarify that creationism has no place in the science classroom since it is essentially garbage from scientific standpoint. I do agree that religion as a worldwide social phenomena (and it's role in history) should be taught, though that would be a touchy subject here in the states. -------------------- I am a robot... bleep blop bloop
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272
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posted February 04, 2005 06:49
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Originally posted by Sla˙tanic:
Well, the idea of things coming from nothing and heading to nothing is just as preposterous. Plus, don't blame 'God' for mankind's faults. We all have our own free will, don't we? Otherwise, we'd all be living in "1984" or something.
I think we should blame it on God Is it so preposterous? The idea that we came from nothing and we end up exactly the same? My belief is that there is no God, we get one shot at life and that's that. No happy ever afterlife or pearly gates / burning fires depending on how naughty you've been. We just die and return to the dust from which we came. I'm not living in any fictional book, it's just my belief, nothing else. Others are perfectly entitled to believe in a God, but it seems to me that people's definition of what God is and stands for has lead to more death and destruction than anything else. -------------------- Hail Santa...
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schroeder
VoivodFan
Member # 5
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posted February 04, 2005 07:57
quote:
Originally posted by Knickerzohnonnof:
I think we should blame it on God Is it so preposterous? The idea that we came from nothing and we end up exactly the same? My belief is that there is no God, we get one shot at life and that's that. No happy ever afterlife or pearly gates / burning fires depending on how naughty you've been. We just die and return to the dust from which we came. I'm not living in any fictional book, it's just my belief, nothing else. Others are perfectly entitled to believe in a God, but it seems to me that people's definition of what God is and stands for has lead to more death and destruction than anything else.
AMEN TO THAT!!!! I totally agree.... although I was hoping that when I keel over, I'd get to listen to my music ALL THE TIME, but I doubt that'll happen. -------------------- yawn
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