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Originally posted by Knickerzohnonnof:
I think we should blame it on God

Is it so preposterous? The idea that we came from nothing and we end up exactly the same? My belief is that there is no God, we get one shot at life and that's that. No happy ever afterlife or pearly gates / burning fires depending on how naughty you've been. We just die and return to the dust from which we came.

I'm not living in any fictional book, it's just my belief, nothing else. Others are perfectly entitled to believe in a God, but it seems to me that people's definition of what God is and stands for has lead to more death and destruction than anything else.

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Blame it on the people, not God.

From what you state, I assume you don't believe in spirit, Knicker and Lyc. Speak of sadism, the idea of just living one life and returning to dust is frightening, and leaves me wondering why, then, are we gifted with such marvel as the conscience. I could write a book about the holes left by this theory, but I'll stick to some thoughts: what's the reason then for things like madness or down syndrome? Aren't we all equals? Why then some people wouldn't have the right to live their entire life in a healthy/conscious way? I don't even qualify poverty/wealthness as good or bad luck, since it's all about quality of living, not how much money one has.

My point is, were we all living in an utopic world, where all the people would be equals and have the same conditions of birth, raising and living, I'd firmly believe in such theory. Otherwise, it's fair for people to have another chance to enjoy life in its entirety.

I, also, don't believe in heaven and hell. Not even the catholic church believes in the classic flaming hell anymore (they believe hell is inside each one of us, btw). I do believe in spirit, though. And in free will also, that's why we're having this healthy multi-faceted argument here.

This is a hell of a great topic.

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Originally posted by Slaÿtanic:
From what you state, I assume you don't believe in spirit, Knicker and Lyc. Speak of sadism, the idea of just living one life and returning to dust is frightening, and leaves me wondering why, then, are we gifted with such marvel as the conscience.

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I actually find comfort in the idea that the molcules and atoms that I am made up will get recycled back into world from which they came. My conciousness, or spirit/soul will live on in those who's lives I have impacted and that's enough for me.

I really don't see the sadism in it, but this really is just a point where we are making speculation based on our personal beliefs since there is no physical way to prove anything about what happens to your conciousness when you die.

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Originally posted by X-D:
I actually find comfort in the idea that the molcules and atoms that I am made up will get recycled back into world from which they came. My conciousness, or spirit/soul will live on in those who's lives I have impacted and that's enough for me.

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I like that angle. And how then do you teach that to your son? awww, I bet he's super-cute!

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why, then, are we gifted with such marvel as the conscience.

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There is no overriding thing called "the conscience". This isn't Pinnochio, unfortunately.

There is no "right" or "wrong", no "good" or "evil". We can agree that actions can be any of these things, but the point is that it is humans that *classify* these actions as things we find reprehensible. There is no force telling us what is and isn't a good thing.

What there is, are "social norms", mutually agreed and accepted norms which are specific to different societies throughout time. These range from which hand you use to pick up a fork to advanced concepts of "morality". Our "gift" of the "conscience" is simply an inner dialogue on the various pros and cons of a situation formed through hundreds of thousands of years of social interaction and conflict.

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My point is, were we all living in an utopic world, where all the people would be equals and have the same conditions of birth, raising and living, I'd firmly believe in such theory.

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I have no idea why you seem to think that evolutionary science, which is founded on the concepts of conflicts between individuals, races and sexes for survival and reproduction is supposed to lead to a utopia of any kind?

Evolution isn't about becoming a "perfect" creature - just one that is as well adapted to it's environment as possible.

We know what causes Down's Syndrome - an almost entirely random genetic defect resulting in the creation of an extra pair of chromosomes. The Universe, as far as we can tell, is based almost entirely on probabilities - whether you catch a disease, inherit a condition, get hit by a bus, are born into a rich family, a poor family, or are born as an amoeba, it's all pure chance. We can have an affect on this through the choices we make, but at the end of the day, most things are random. Welcome to quantum theory.

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Originally posted by Lycanthropy:
I have no idea why you seem to think that evolutionary science, which is founded on the concepts of conflicts between individuals, races and sexes for survival and reproduction is supposed to lead to a utopia of any kind?

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That's probably because I don't. My point was, were the conditions of birth, raising and living equal to everybody, I'd believe in coming and going to nothing. Note that I stated before that I do think evolutionary science is on the right path, all I think is we are still far from discovering the truth.

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Originally posted by lyc:
As a note, most explanations of illness and disease based on spirit and theism include the idea of "it's meant to happen" as a "punishment", usually. An idea which, to my mind is both ludicrous and incredibly distasteful.

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Agreed. That's why my personal opinion on the matter is, whatever is the problem a person faces during his/her life, it's not punishment, it's actually teaching. It's something he/she needs to learn for some reason.

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Originally posted by hexonxonx:
Evolution theory - the real theory - doesn't contradict the existence of God. Only one of the claims has a slight contradiction - that all mutations are totally random.
Even the claim "it all came from nothing and ends in nothing" doesn't contradict the existence of God - you can rephrase it as "it all came from God and ends in God" and the meaning won't change a bit. We don't really know what was that "nothing" like when there wasn't anything else, the same way we don't know what God was like at that time.
Real science doesn't contradict religion, pseudo-scientific philosophies (such as positivism or marxism) do.

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Amen to that. As brilliant as all the people's arguments here are (and as poor as my own are ), we are all just speculating.

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i think evolution and creation should both be taught at schools, but not just the Christian based creation mumbo jumbo, it should encompass all different forms of religious ideas.

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I hate to tell you this, but there are around 3000 religons in the world, a lot of them have their own 'creation myth.' It would be impossible and pointless to teach them all. Since everyone thinks their creation myth is correct, any creation myths taught would create huge controversy. It's better to stick to teaching things with evidence to back them up.

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Originally posted by Slaÿtanic:
Blame it on the people, not God.

From what you state, I assume you don't believe in spirit, Knicker and Lyc. Speak of sadism, the idea of just living one life and returning to dust is frightening, and leaves me wondering why, then, are we gifted with such marvel as the conscience. I could write a book about the holes left by this theory, but I'll stick to some thoughts: what's the reason then for things like madness or down syndrome? Aren't we all equals? Why then some people wouldn't have the right to live their entire life in a healthy/conscious way? I don't even qualify poverty/wealthness as good or bad luck, since it's all about quality of living, not how much money one has.

My point is, were we all living in an utopic world, where all the people would be equals and have the same conditions of birth, raising and living, I'd firmly believe in such theory. Otherwise, it's fair for people to have another chance to enjoy life in its entirety.

I, also, don't believe in heaven and hell. Not even the catholic church believes in the classic flaming hell anymore (they believe hell is inside each one of us, btw). I do believe in spirit, though. And in free will also, that's why we're having this healthy multi-faceted argument here.

This is a hell of a great topic.

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Agreed. That was elegantly written Slay. For someone for whom english is not their first language, you do a wonderful job.

NOw, I'm the first to admit that Slay and others are more eloquent than I. But I don't claim to know the answers, I wasn't holding it up as a universal truth - I was presenting *that opinion*, which I personally subscribe to. But never mind.

I mean, it's laudable that we have this sense of fairness where we think that people should have an opportunity to experience something beyond. But it throws up far too many questions - what about animals? Plants? Amoeba? Do they have an afterlife too? If not, why not - they're alive, they're conscious of their surroundings, some of them are born more advantaged than others.

There are some things we can't know - this whole debate is about things we can't know for sure, the origin of life, God, the afterlife, etc. But when we *do* know something - about social norms and why different cultures hold different values - then I see no reason to hold that back just because it might make someone think a bit.

Keep on truckin', Mez.

"There is no"

"There is no"

"What there is"

Another hopeless, but always interesting debate.

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I say that because those of us with siblings learn early that life isn't fair (at least, that's what my parents kept telling us). So why assume that something will happen after death to make up for it?

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Originally posted by warcorpse:
My only question is, why are they troubled?

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Seriously? You don't find widespread ignorance troubling then? Ehh, ok.

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Originally posted by MadMeg:
Slay, I'm going to assume you're an only child?

I say that because those of us with siblings learn early that life isn't fair (at least, that's what my parents kept telling us). So why assume that something will happen after death to make up for it?

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Bah, you knew that in advance.

Yes, I happen to be an only child. I don't really think life isn't fair, though. I do believe, instead, that what goes around comes around. So, IMHO, life IS fair.

About life after death, yes, I do believe in it, for the several reasons I pointed before. But, instead of using the term "make up", I'd rather go for "grow up".

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Originally posted by warcorpse:
29% is hardly widespread ignorance.

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I asked with why do they find it troubling?

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This is troubling because:
1. It is an indication that many Americans lack basic training or knowledge of science.
2. Though not perfect, evolution theory is backed up by much evidence, and statements that counter this fact are untrue.
3. It is in the best interests of the scientific community and all of us, that most people at least know about scientific issues before they discount them as this effects descisions pertaining to funding, research, laws, technological development, etc. Unenlightened higher-ups can be a danger to the public, the environment, the world.

The poll also shows that one-half of the U.S. population believes we did not evolve from apes, but were created by God as stated in the bible.

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It seems to me, that the scientists are just pissed because people are religious...or... you know, DUMB. America is a science and technology powerhouse, god and all. Get over it and get back to your beakers.

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Haha, no surprise, I don't even remotely share your views on this topic. Good to have some different perspectives into the mix though as too much like-mindedness isn't always a good thing in a thread like this (something I think we can agree on).

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Originally posted by warcorpse:
Actually, I have no solid view/belief on any form of creationism, evolution, etc., count me as one of the ignorant.

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Two "ignorants" monsieur warcorpse
This is indeed a very good topic, however religious and cientific prespectives dont answer to all questions.

schroeder

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...Both points of view boil down to one thing that can't and will probably never be explained or proven.

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Originally posted by Mezcalhead:
Oh it will all be explained when you die...you just won't be able to get on here and tell all of us!

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Originally posted by warcorpse:
Actually, I have no solid view/belief on any form of creationism, evolution, etc., count me as one of the ignorant.

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Yeah ok, after I typed up my earlier responses, I considered the possibility that you were attempting to have me chase my tail. Good one. When I said I don't share your views, I am referring to your blanket assumptions about people of science and sarcastic definitions of alleged "ignorance".

Whether or not people wish to believe in evolution or creationism is none of my concern. If this belief begins to effect the quality of the science my son is taught in school, than the issue will move from "interesting and insightful" to "pressing".

Though I find theories and conjecture about life after death fascinating, it really has little to do with the ascent of humans as a species. Or does it? Just enjoying this thread...

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I really don't see there EVER being conclusive proof to this EVER. It will forever remain the great mystery of life.

"WHY ARE WE HERE?"

I'm here for the music, if that ever goes away... KILL ME

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Originally posted by Nuno:
ok junior i will send you a deathmail to tell you how it is

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Originally posted by schroeder:
"WHY ARE WE HERE?"

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How about this? We got here by accident and we'll never know why...

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