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As for this being an important day to mankind,I have my doubts too. Saddam was an obvious target since the 11-9 attacks and the reasons behind this war were not so legitimate in my book.
Look at what happened to other tyrants such as Idi Amin and Papa Doc and you'll realize that the Western (or the USA) haven't done much to bring justice to other places.

I, for one, think there's something else holding the proccess back: where are the so-called weapons of mass destruction?? This was the reason why Iraq was invaded in the first place, right??

But yes, damn glad they got the dirty piece of shit. Now try him in Iraq and let his own people pass judgement.

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Originally posted by Kane:
the "Jerry Garcia Saddam"

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I think he was more or less preparing himself for his new job as a shoping mall Santa Claus. Or he wants to look like Osama?

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Originally posted by Mr Eddy:
I, for one, think there's something else holding the proccess back: where are the so-called weapons of mass destruction?? This was the reason why Iraq was invaded in the first place, right??

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just read my post above, 'theres the weapons right there', his police force and his dictator rule. thats mass enough destruction for me!

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Man, if this coalition is going to stick their nose in every country where there's a dictator or a police force which goes too far, we'd better sit and wait for the next target once they're done with Iraqi.
They were the ones who brought up the WMD thing to public, not me. I strongly believe that Saddam Hussein doesn't deserve the air he breathes but there was no reason for this war whatsoever. If the Anglo-American coalition was willing to fix things in Iraqi, they should've done it in the 80's. Why wait so long?

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some people watch too much news and their opinions are completly swayed by it, its sad really.

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Originally posted by Hatröss:
the most recent uncovered MASS-GRAVE had about 20 to 30 THOUSAND ! people in it

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Originally posted by Hatröss:
WeaponsOfMassDestruction ? as if this whole ordeal depends on the uncovering of them. just read my post above, 'theres the weapons right there', his police force and his dictator rule. thats mass enough destruction for me ! some people watch too much news and their opinions are completly swayed by it, its sad really.

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Man, you just said a mouthful there.

We Finally Got Our Frankenstein... and He Was In a Spider Hole! -- by Michael Moore

December 14, 2003

Thank God Saddam is finally back in American hands! He must have really missed us. Man, he sure looked bad! But, at least he got a free dental exam today. That's something most Americans can't get.

America used to like Saddam. We LOVED Saddam. We funded him. We armed him. We helped him gas Iranian troops.

But then he screwed up. He invaded the dictatorship of Kuwait and, in doing so, did the worst thing imaginable -- he threatened an even BETTER friend of ours: the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia, and its vast oil reserves. The Bushes and the Saudi royal family were and are close business partners, and Saddam, back in 1990, committed a royal blunder by getting a little too close to their wealthy holdings. Things went downhill for Saddam from there.

But it wasn't always that way. Saddam was our good friend and ally. We supported his regime. It wasn’t the first time we had helped a murderer. We liked playing Dr. Frankenstein. We created a lot of monsters -- the Shah of Iran, Somoza of Nicaragua, Pinochet of Chile -- and then we expressed ignorance or shock when they ran amok and massacred people. We liked Saddam because he was willing to fight the Ayatollah. So we made sure that he got billions of dollars to purchase weapons. Weapons of mass destruction. That's right, he had them. We should know -- we gave them to him!

We allowed and encouraged American corporations to do business with Saddam in the 1980s. That's how he got chemical and biological agents so he could use them in chemical and biological weapons. Here's the list of some of the stuff we sent him (according to a 1994 U.S. Senate report):

* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.

* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.

* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.

* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.

* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.

* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.

And here are some of the American corporations who helped to prop Saddam up by doing business with him: AT&T, Bechtel, Caterpillar, Dow Chemical, Dupont, Kodak, Hewlett-Packard, and IBM (for a full list of companies and descriptions of how they helped Saddam, go here).

We were so cozy with dear old Saddam that we decided to feed him satellite images so he could locate where the Iranian troops were. We pretty much knew how he would use the information, and sure enough, as soon as we sent him the spy photos, he gassed those troops. And we kept quiet. Because he was our friend, and the Iranians were the "enemy." A year after he first gassed the Iranians, we reestablished full diplomatic relations with him!

Later he gassed his own people, the Kurds. You would think that would force us to disassociate ourselves from him. Congress tried to impose economic sanctions on Saddam, but the Reagan White House quickly rejected that idea -- they wouldn’t let anything derail their good buddy Saddam. We had a virtual love fest with this Frankenstein whom we (in part) created.

And, just like the mythical Frankenstein, Saddam eventually spun out of control. He would no longer do what he was told by his master. Saddam had to be caught. And now that he has been brought back from the wilderness, perhaps he will have something to say about his creators. Maybe we can learn something... interesting. Maybe Don Rumsfeld could smile and shake Saddam's hand again. Just like he did when he went to see him in 1983 (see the photo here).

Maybe we never would have been in the situation we're in if Rumsfeld, Bush, Sr., and company hadn't been so excited back in the 80s about their friendly monster in the desert.

Meanwhile, anybody know where the guy is who killed 3,000 people on 9/11? Our other Frankenstein?? Maybe he's in a mouse hole.

So many of our little monsters, so little time before the next election.

Stay strong, Democratic candidates. Quit sounding like a bunch of wusses. These bastards sent us to war on a lie, the killing will not stop, the Arab world hates us with a passion, and we will pay for this out of our pockets for years to come. Nothing that happened today (or in the past 9 months) has made us ONE BIT safer in our post-9/11 world. Saddam was never a threat to our national security.

Only our desire to play Dr. Frankenstein dooms us all.

Yours,

Michael Moore

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December 19, 2003

As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids who are in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of letters from our troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different from what we are seeing on the evening news.

What they are saying to me, often eloquently and in heart-wrenching words, is that they were lied to -- and this war has nothing to do with the security of the United States of America.

I've written back and spoken on the phone to many of them and I've asked a few of them if it would be OK if I posted their letters on my website and they've said yes. They do so at great personal risk (as they may face disciplinary measures for exercising their right to free speech). I thank them for their bravery.

Lance Corporal George Batton of the United States Marine Corps, who returned from Iraq in September (after serving in MP company Alpha), writes the following:

“You'd be surprised at how many of the guys I talked to in my company and others believed that the president's scare about Saddam's WMD was a bunch of bullshit and that the real motivation for this war was only about money. There was also a lot of crap that many companies, not just marine companies, had to go through with not getting enough equipment to fulfill their missions when they crossed the border. It was a miracle that our company did what it did the two months it was staying in Iraq during the war…. We were promised to go home on June 8th, and found out that it was a lie and we got stuck doing missions for an extra three months. Even some of the most radical conservatives in our company including our company gunnery sergeant got a real bad taste in their mouth about the Marine corps, and maybe even president Bush.”

Here's what Specialist Mike Prysner of the U.S. Army wrote to me:

“Dear Mike -- I’m writing this without knowing if it’ll ever get to you…I’m writing it from the trenches of a war (that’s still going on,) not knowing why I’m here or when I’m leaving. I’ve toppled statues and vandalized portraits, while wearing an American flag on my sleeve, and struggling to learn how to understand… I joined the army as soon as I was eligible – turned down a writing scholarship to a state university, eager to serve my country, ready to die for the ideals I fell in love with. Two years later I found myself moments away from a landing onto a pitch black airstrip, ready to charge into a country I didn't believe I belonged in, with your words (from the Oscars) repeating in my head. My time in Iraq has always involved finding things to convince myself that I can be proud of my actions; that I was a part of something just. But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation…"

An Army private, still in Iraq and wishing to remain anonymous, writes:

“I would like to tell you how difficult it is to serve under a man who was never elected. Because he is the president and my boss, I have to be very careful as to who and what i say about him. This also concerns me a great deal... to limit the military's voice is to limit exactly what America stands for... and the greater percentage of us feel completely underpowered. He continually sets my friends, my family, and several others in a kind of danger that frightens me beyond belief. I know several other soldiers who feel the same way and discuss the situation with me on a regular basis.”

Jerry Oliver of the U.S. Army, who has just returned from Baghdad, writes:

“I have just returned home from "Operation Iraqi Freedom". I spent 5 months in Baghdad, and a total of 3 years in the U.S. Army. I was recently discharged with Honorable valor and returned to the States only to be horrified by what I've seen my country turn into. I'm now 22 years old and have discovered America is such a complicated place to live, and moreover, Americans are almost oblivious to what's been happening to their country. America has become "1984." Homeland security is teaching us to spy on one another and forcing us to become anti-social. Americans are willingly sacrificing our freedoms in the name of security, the same Freedoms I was willing to put my life on the line for. The constitution is in jeopardy. As Gen. Tommy Franks said, (broken down of course) One more terrorist attack and the constitution will hold no meaning.”

More testimonials/letters, for the open-minded American Voivod-fan, wether you like Michael Moore or not. This seems to be real.Give it a try.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/dudewheresmycountry/soldierletters/index.php)

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Originally posted by Simon6:
"I've received hundreds of letters from our troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different from what we are seeing on the evening news"

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This ain't no big surprise really. There's no such thing as free speech in times of war. Mass-media corporations are brainwashing people 1984-style and if you rise against it, others will say that you're the one watching too much news...

Saddam Hussein was given plenty of time to fall in line with the demands made to him by the UN. He had TOO much time, and flaunted his disregard time and again. His ousting by military force was completely justified. The execution of the post-ousting scenario is a horrible joke that seemed to have been ill-conceived from the get go. Lots more coalition troops get to come home in body bags, and lots more 'free' Iraqis get to die before they ever cast a vote for their new leadership. It's sickening.

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Originally posted by Kane:
So, when someone disagrees with your view on an issue, they are 'brainwashed'? It's not that simple.

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Kane, this is your take on my post. I didn't say that if someone disagrees on my opinion they're brainwashed. The fact is that the invasion of Iraq and the capture of Saddam were turn into a media-circus. Most people can't face the fact that, even if Saddam is a threat to Iraq and its neighbors, the war could've been avoided. That's why I agree with Moore when he reflects on the Iraq-Iran war and the oil issue.
The whole world was watching the Kosovo war with arms crossed. Now the Russians are slaughtering people in Chechenia and no one raises a finger to stop it.
Why did this coalition picked up Saddam as their major target if he's been killing people for 2 decades? Let's see what happens in North Korea where they have missiles strategically pointed to Japan.

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My delight over the capture of Hussein has NOTHING to do with patriotism. It's the same feeling of satisfaction I get when a priest is imprisoned for molesting children. The problem here is that there is so much goddamn GENERALIZATION being made of the whole war. If you are against it, you are non-patriotic. If you are for it, you're a Warmonger.

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I'm glad your satisfaction over the capture of Saddam has nothing to do with patriotism. But, then again, I wasn't referring to you on my post, Kane. Also, I second you on the generalization issue, even if I strongly believe that all war is dirty.

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Saddam Hussein was given plenty of time to fall in line with the demands made to him by the UN. He had TOO much time, and flaunted his disregard time and again.

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Originally posted by hexonxonx:
But to paint the picture of "peaceful Chechen peasants routinely oppressed by Russian troops" is inaccurate at best.

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Who are you quoting, Hexon? I, for one, am concerned about civilians being slaughtered. No matter if the "local terrorists" are partly guilty for the slaughter.

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Now about Chechnya. Let me ask you - how much do you know about that? Not much probably.

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Most people don't realize that it's not the matter of Saddam being a bad guy. The "Dr. Frankenstein" metaphore puts things in a different perspective and I only wish it leads more people to reflect on the current events with less patriotic passion.

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Warcorpse, I know Michael Moore has almost become a clichee. But you're avoiding the issue. Just focus on the content. Imagine the source was not M. Moore.
I don't think we should deny the complaints by those soldiers. Or deny any facts, or even reality.
Best regards, S.

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Originally posted by hexonxonx:
You're not correct in painting the history. You mean, between 1991-1994 Chechnya was an independent state? Not. Never was, since 19th century. In fact, bandits that ruled that piece of land while Yeltsin was lying drunk and did nothing...

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That's what I meant, Hexon. Moscow never recognized Chechnya as a legitimate state, even if they lost control over it after the USSR collapse.

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The point of the quote - this is wrong to say that in Caucasus conflict Chechens are 100% right and Russians are 100% wrong. But I'm not saying the opposite either - I'm by no means advocating Putin.

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Neither am I. It just makes me sad to think that no Western country dared to solve that drama, even if there are thousands of people being killed over there. It just leads to where I disagree with the Iraq conflict: the whole war wasn't made out of mercy for the Iraqi civilians.
Don't know if we'll ever really know the deal with Dick Cheney and Halliburton/Bechtel, but I'd stick with Jello Biafra's "don't die for oil, don't be a sucker" motto.

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Warcorpse, I know Michael Moore has almost become a clichee. But you're avoiding the issue. Just focus on the content. Imagine the source was not M. Moore.

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