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Originally posted by Tangento:

I spent the first 35 years of my life in and around Los Angeles... which is kind of 'big', and Minneapolis isn't quite the backwoods either.

So what, no lists for me?

Hey Mez, how about a little background and perhaps a URL to go with that morbid pic of yours?

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Here you go: http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010434

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Originally posted by Mezcalhead:
"Find me ANY quote from any one of these fine gentlemen in which they avow even the slightest hint of approval for the prospect of a fledgling dictatorship in the U.S. Presidency, and I will buy YOU a case of imports."

A six pack of Guiness would be fine, thanks: http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_2_urbanities-thomas_jefferson.html

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A rogue act of war against a nasty band of Pirates is hardly a QUOTE from Jefferson declaring a lust for tyranny in the executive branch.

Sheesh...if you're that desperate for beer, I'll PayPal you a ten spot. (shiver me timbers)

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"You have the option to drill additional holes in the label,
causing the record to rotate off the side of the turntable"

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Originally posted by LyKcantropen:
G'wan Mez. Go one step further - ditch saying just "Muslim radicals" and go after anybody and everybody who wishes to arbitrarily restrict anyone else's right to freedom of conscience, freedom of speech and lifestyle. You can do it! Break the box!

'cos that is what the fight is about. It's what all the best fights are always about.

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Originally posted by Tangento:
A rogue act of war against a nasty band of Pirates is hardly a QUOTE from Jefferson declaring a lust for tyranny in the executive branch.

Sheesh...if you're that desperate for beer, I'll PayPal you a ten spot. (shiver me timbers)

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Haha....of course you're not gonna find any quotes...BUT... I think it gives a good idea of what our ForeFathers would have done had they been transported to '07. In fact, I don't have to tell you this...you know the point I was trying to make....

Looking at it from my side of the pond and in light of my support for this war at the start I have a couple of points I'd like to throw in.

There is no doubt in my mind now that the Bush administration has completely screwed Iraq up and either didn't have a clue what they were going to do when they stepped into Bagdhad or simply didn't care - I'm hedging bets on the latter. For the gross incompetence, not to mention the outright stupidity of choosing the course they did Bush should face impeachment because his decisions have condemned thousands of troops and tens of thousands of Iraqi's to death. He may only have another year of his presidency left but I think he needs to go now. Pulling out of Iraq is not an option, the mess made by this dysfunctional idiot has to be cleaned up. It's just how to get there that needs to be figured out and stopping the sectarian war from becoming all out civil war, although I think we are rapidly running out of time on that one.

For the wars I had on this forum about this - I was wrong to place my trust in this man. The British have a good record on volatile situations like this. For instance the way we handled Sierra Leone was about as textbook as these things get. I would not be surprised at all to find out we were not listened to either. I think the UK's part in this was gullible but sincere and Tony Blair acted in good faith, believing rightly or wrongly that he was doing the right thing. You could tell in his body language towards the end of his premiership though that he knew he had been horribly deceived and that his place in history is now indellibly stained with this wretched episode.

One other thing you should consider is that your country is now on more debt than it was before Clinton took office in 1992. I'm not going to argue whether Clinton's policies did the country good or harm. What I will say though is your current president is doing nothing but harm to you, your country's standing in the world and it's long term future. I think you should act now, not just for Iraq but for the sake of yourselves too.

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the Bush administration has completely screwed Iraq up and either didn't have a clue what they were going to do when they stepped into Bagdhad or simply didn't care.

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This situation has been going on quite sometime and mostly back before any of us were even born. What the Bush administration has done was to open the eyes of the world plus millions of americans and britons to the problem by branding the name (war on terror)
Even if in the future when those arabs decide to nuke themselves, it will be the Bush administration that will be credited with the fall of radical islams remaining dictators. (Just as Regan was with Russia) The bush administration has also helped bring to light what is the second most popular baby name in the UK... (indirectly)

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The British have a good record on volatile situations like this. For instance the way we handled Sierra Leone was about as textbook as these things get.

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Hatross

The 'war on terror' or perhaps we should really call it the war on radical islam, is not what I was pointing at. Radical islam wants us, the west, removed from the Earth and sharia law, or versions of, put in place. Nobody can really argue that this sort of extremism does pose a threat - how much of one of course is subject to speculation. But this is more complex than the simple 'war on terror' phrase. Iraq is the current flashpoint but the actions that were taken when the US first stepped into Bagdhad drew it there. Iraq could have been so different if they hadn't disbanded the army and chose the path they have - it really couldn't be much worse and Bush's handling of this whole affair has to be called into question.

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Originally posted by Hatross:
In the wake of 9/11 americans were scared and unsure, everyone was screaming for vengence if I remember correctly, and now that they got what they forgot they wanted, everyone is calling foul.

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Oh dear. I remember it too, and we all wanted Bin Laden's head on a stake. Then what happened? Well, "in a perfect world", the administration doesn't LIE us into a pointless, expensive quagmire in which there is no solution, nor a feasible escape.

For that matter, "in a perfect world", the guy who wins the majority vote becomes president... and damning evidence of election fraud in Ohio doesn't go up in smoke "in a perfect world" either.

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Originally posted by Hatross:
(I feel the media creates opposition sometimes.. for reasons i can not even fathom yet)

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That's an easy one: the American media is almost entirely corporate-owned, and more importantly, it is owned by just a small handful of corporations -- many of whom just happen to share a very special 'agenda'. (and before you jump my shit, a great deal of the blame for this goes to Mr. CLINTON and his Telecommunications Act of 1996)

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"You have the option to drill additional holes in the label,
causing the record to rotate off the side of the turntable"

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Originally posted by KnickerZohnonnof:
I lied, I will make a second...

Hatross

The 'war on terror' or perhaps we should really call it the war on radical islam, is not what I was pointing at. Radical islam wants us, the west, removed from the Earth and sharia law, or versions of, put in place. Nobody can really argue that this sort of extremism does pose a threat - how much of one of course is subject to speculation. But this is more complex than the simple 'war on terror' phrase. Iraq is the current flashpoint but the actions that were taken when the US first stepped into Bagdhad drew it there. Iraq could have been so different if they hadn't disbanded the army and chose the path they have - it really couldn't be much worse and Bush's handling of this whole affair has to be called into question.

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You are quite correct that major mistakes were made by this administration during several key periods of this war. Disbandment of their army was a big one. But it now appears the administration is doing what it should have done at the start of the conflict. And it appears to be now working. Check this article from the great fortress of leftist journalism THE NEW YORK TIMES, (written by two critics of the war who work for the Brookings Institution, a lib thinktank'): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30pollack.html?ex=1186804800&en=497b60ad7c2a412f&ei=5070

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Originally posted by Tangento:
That's an easy one: the American media is almost entirely corporate-owned, and more importantly, it is owned by just a small handful of corporations -- many of whom just happen to share a very special 'agenda'. (and before you jump my shit, a great deal of the blame for this goes to Mr. CLINTON and his Telecommunications Act of 1996)

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I have taken it beyond the 1st level in my fathoming and I appreciate that info.

I did not mean to jump ya dude, I am just sensitive because I was all beat up during the 'war is coming' so now I have these scars and shit, even though Warcorpse stepped in and snatched me out the pitt \m/

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Check this article from the great fortress of leftist journalism THE NEW YORK TIMES, (written by two critics of the war who work for the Brookings Institution, a lib thinktank'): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30pollack.html?ex=1186804800&en=49 7b60ad7c2a412f&ei=5070[/QB]

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Huh-whoops:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/08/12/ohanlon/index.html

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But the far greater deceit involves the trip itself and the way it was represented -- both by Pollack/O'Hanlon as well as the excited media figures who touted its significance and meaning. From beginning to end, this trip was planned, shaped and controlled by the U.S. military -- a fact inexcusably concealed in both the Op-Ed itself and virtually every interview the two of them gave.

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"You have the option to drill additional holes in the label,
causing the record to rotate off the side of the turntable"

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Originally posted by Tangento:

Huh-whoops:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/08/12/ohanlon/index.html

[QUOTE] But the far greater deceit involves the trip itself and the way it was represented -- both by Pollack/O'Hanlon as well as the excited media figures who touted its significance and meaning. From beginning to end, this trip was planned, shaped and controlled by the U.S. military -- a fact inexcusably concealed in both the Op-Ed itself and virtually every interview the two of them gave.

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Damn, I got caught!! I'll give you this one.

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Originally posted by Mezcalhead:
Damn, I got caught!! I'll give you this one.

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Anyway, here's a piece from the Huffington Post which compares the above-mentioned article with one written by actual soldiers:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-rieckhoff/the-82nd-airborne-vs-the_b_61201.html

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"You have the option to drill additional holes in the label,
causing the record to rotate off the side of the turntable"