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Author Topic: September 13, 1973 (The Chilean 9/11)
K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 10, 2003 12:18     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Everyone needs to read this story.
It is from the site: http://alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16712

:::

A Tale of Two Septembers

By David Morris, AlterNet
September 9, 2003

September 11th marks the second anniversary of the aerial attack by terrorists that killed 2,700 people and profoundly changed American society.

September 11th also marks the anniversary, in this case the thirtieth, of the aerial attack by terrorists that led to the murder of more than 3,000 people and profoundly changed Chilean society.

American commentators probably won't mention the 1973 attacks on Chile and their aftermath. They should, because in those attacks it was the U.S. government that played the role of Al Qaeda – recruiting, training, arming, financing and coordinating the terrorists.

Our involvement in this unsavory affair is now widely recognized. As Secretary of State Colin Powell himself recently acknowledged, "It is not a part of our country's history that we are proud of."

Powell's comment implies a feeling of contrition that I doubt his colleagues in this Administration share. For the ties are remarkably intimate between those who planned the attacks on Chile's White House and those in charge of responding to the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld worked in the Nixon cabinet. And in a most telling demonstration of continuity, President Bush appointed Henry Kissinger, the central player in the overthrow of the Chilean government, to chair the Committee investigating the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. (Kissinger withdrew in the face of ferocious worldwide criticism.)

On September 4, 1970 Salvador Allende, founder of the Socialist Party and four time presidential candidate, was elected President of Chile. That Allende was duly and uncontrovertibly elected in a country with a long and rich democratic tradition, a country whose voting turnout is double that of the United States, was irrelevant to President Nixon and his Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its own people," Kissinger declared.

"Nixon was beside himself," Kissinger later wrote. CIA Director Richard Helms remembers Nixon "wanted something done and he didn't much care how."

Initially the U.S. tried to forestall Allende's taking office by financing the kidnapping of the head of the Armed Forces, General Rene Schneider. Schneider resisted and was shot on October 22, 1970 and died three days later. The CIA reportedly paid $35,000 to the assassins.

Having failed with Plan A, Nixon and Kissinger moved to Plan B. This was, according to Nixon's CIA Director Richard Helms to "make the (Chilean) economy scream".

Plan B was successful economically. By cutting off public and private aid, encouraging U.S. corporations to stop sending replacement parts to Chilean factories and fomenting strikes and sabotage in Chile, the U.S. undermined its economy.

But Plan B failed politically. Even in the face of growing economic instability Chile maintained its democratic traditions. And the percentage voting for Allende's Popular Unity coalition continued to increase, from 36 percent in September 1970 to 44 percent in April 1972.

In June 1973 parts of the Chilean Navy attempted a coup and failed. A million people marched to the President's office and demanded arms to be able to defend the government. President Allende stood on the balcony and firmly rejected their request. To the end he was a Constitutionalist.

As were several of the leaders of the Chilean military. These were arrested in the early morning of September 11th. About 8:30AM rogue military units began bombing the Chilean White House. Allende died in his office. General Augusto Pinochet, an admirer of Adolf Hitler, seized power.

Pinochet's military dictatorship killed thousands, tortured tens of thousands and drove more than a million Chileans into exile. A society with a 150 year tradition of democracy and participation suffered under totalitarian rule.

No elections were held at any level for 15 years. Women were arrested for organizing soccer clubs. As Tina Rosenberg observed in the New York Times, "Meetings of any kind were considered subversive – in the first year after the coup, even Miss Chile was appointed."

The United States rewarded Chile by dramatically increasing both grants and loans. On June 8, 1976, at the height of Pinochet's repression, Kissinger met in private with the dictator and told him, "We are sympathetic to what you are trying to do here".

Having thwarted the possibility that Chile would become a model of democratic socialism, the United States made Chile a model of dictatorial capitalism. Under the hands-on guidance of University of Chicago economists, the Chilean economy was restructured. Unions were outlawed. Real wages plunged. Social spending was slashed. Of 507 public enterprises in l973 only l5 remained in government hands by l980. Chile privatized its social security system.

The experiment failed. Unemployment soared. Malnutrition soared. In l973 Chile had the second highest income in Latin America, next to oil rich Venezuela. By 1988, when the military relinquished the reigns of government, Chile's income had fallen behind that of many countries, including Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay.

As a result of widespread protests, none of which were financed by the United States, Pinochet agreed to step down. In 1989 a new government took office and to some extent has undone the damage wrought by the Pinochet years.

Today Chilean society remains scarred by the events of 9/11/73. The military pushed through a Constitutional provision that allowed it sufficient representation in Congress to block reforms. In l99l General Pinochet declared that if Chile were to try to undertake the kinds of economic initiatives embraced by Allende, "In such circumstances it will be impossible to prevent" the military from intervening once again. Although elections now take place in Chile and political activity has revived, its dimension and vitality, once so rich, is circumscribed.

The United States also felt the effects of 9/11/73. Policymakers were shocked at the revelations of our involvement. And at the same time they learned of Nixon's increasing willingness to wield the powers of government against perceived domestic as well as foreign enemies.

Nixon resigned in August 1974. Congressional investigations of our the use of government here and abroad by the Nixon administration led it to reinforce and strengthen the prohibition on domestic surveillance by the CIA. It banned the use of assassination as a tool of foreign policy. CIA director Richard Helms was indicted and convicted of lying to Congress about US involvement in Chile.

Today the connections between the two September lls remain. While we are pursuing Saddam Hussein in order to try him for war crimes, prosecutors in four countries are pursuing Henry Kissinger to get him to testify about his role in the Chilean coup.

In the aftermath of 9/11/01 the Bush White House has reinstated many of the practices of the Nixon White House and has adopted a similar approach regarding those who oppose its policies. Nixon had an enemies list. Vice President Cheney declares, "You're either for us or against us." The policy of covert interventions in foreign countries has been revived. The CIA now is intimately involved in domestic surveillance. The White House has formally re-established the practice of political assassination.

This September 11th we should remember two anniversaries and reflect on the links between the two.

:::

It was the Republican U.S. Administration that was responsible for the deaths of thousands then.
Not just in Chili, but elsewhere.
Now, we have the same Ideals in power.

Bloodthirsty Republican Neo-con's who want to rule the World.


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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 10, 2003 12:56     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Want to know why terrorists hate the US? Because we have a long history of overthrowing governments and installing puppet regimes in their place. For all the talk about Democracy, the US has a long history of backing dictators, such as Batista, Marcos, the Shah, and so forth, who oppressed their people for the benefit of American corporations until their people rebelled and regained their freedoms. Then the US labels those freedom fighters as "terrorists" to try to regain control.

Want to stop terrorism? Stop screwing around with other people's countries and the terrorists will go home. Contrary to the corporate interests that rule this nation, terrorists don't hate us because we are free. People everywhere love freedom. Only governments hate people who are free. The terrorists hate the US because the US government is trying to take their freedom away, as happened when the US toppled democratically elected Allende and installed the dictator Pinochet in his place. Nobody likes another country to come in and mess with their country. We certainly do not like it happening here, so why should other people be any different?

Terrorism is the bastard child of US foreign policy mated with US corporate greed.


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blacky
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posted September 10, 2003 23:19     Profile for blacky   Email blacky     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I agree with you KK, freedom is costly, I'm not talking about cash here.
Something I found about Pinochet coup and the aftermath.
THE FUNERAL OF ORLANDO LETELIER

There was a TV documentary yesterday about Chili, next channel was the WTC documentary, interesting paradox.


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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 11, 2003 09:49     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am sorry for your loss, Annki.

I read that news yesterday and was somewhat shocked.
Today i am sad that she died from her injuries.
I have read reports that said she was not very friendly toward Israel.
There, of course, has been speculation that she was targeted for her views in that area.


Blacky...I will check out that link when i get more time today.


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Gerfat
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Member # 45

posted September 11, 2003 10:28     Profile for Gerfat   Email Gerfat     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
As you all may know, I'm from Chile, and I was born during those rough times, my whole childhood suffered with stupid restrictions, living with fear in the streets, and having a puppet as a president... As I was growing and getting more into the subject, I began to understand the real motivations of the "military strike", and it was repulsive... Everyday that passes, I acquire more info about what really happened before I was born, and I thank KK for this great article... I have a couple of friends living in Sweden now too Annky...
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000
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Member # 358

posted September 11, 2003 11:04     Profile for 000   Email 000     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi King Kula and Gerfat.

Yes, Anna Lindh was a fighter for the palestinians and for other people who lives under terror and opression. she had nothing against the people of Israel, it's the leaders she "attacked". I have met Israel citizen here in sweden and we all sat together with palestinian refugees and talked about the Israel/Palestinian matter. We found it a bit ironic that we, here in sweden, could sit and talk as friends at the same time as the middle east is burning. I know of many Israel citizen's who take action for the palestinian's, they, for ex; load lorries with medications and food and drive out to the palestinian villages. And I do know Israelian med. Dr. follows to take care of those who need medical treatment.

I think this proves that it is the so called "leaders missed the point", just as in the Voivod lyrics.

As in the case of Olof Palme the police doesn't seem to be able to find the murderer. I don't want to speculate in who or for what reason this happened. I hope it was a lonely crazy person.

I remember Chile and what happened there. I wasn't so old but I can still recall the pictures in my mind. I have an album with Victor Jara and he was a fighter for freedoom in Chile. Those who came here after Pinochet's "take-over" is now swedish citizens and most of them are married here and have children who goes in school.
I'm happy sweden is a multicultural society, one of my best friends is from Argentina, she came here after beeing held as a prison at the age of 16 by the Argentinian military regim.

Anna Lindh will surely be remembred as a person who fought for democracy, for an open society and for women in politics.
It's a big loss for sweden, doesn't matter what political party you voted for. She was very popular because she wasn't afraid of "Big Leaders". She did dare to speak up!

Take care!


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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 11, 2003 13:09     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hi Gerfat!
Our Chilean Voivod Representative has spoken!
I was hoping to get your thoughts on the matter.

Blacky posted a link above to something quite interresting on the matter.
As i was reading through that site, i found something the Arthur wrote concerning
9/11 and the Iraq situation.
It is worth reading.
http://www.fragmentsweb.org/stuff/terror.html

Of course, some of the typical War Mongers who are on VVF wont agree, but thats too bad.

Its sad how when the United States and Great Britain try to push "Democracy" on other
Cultures in the name of greedy Capatilist goals, it ends up in a big bloody mess.

When will the arrogant British and Americans realize that other people are perfectly
capable of controling theyre own affairs?
Just because they arent doing things the way the "West" thinks they should be done...
they get punished, or invaded.
Then its the poor who suffer, while back here in the West...the rich get richer.

Meanwhile, Americans (and Brits) sit smugly in theyre Air-Conditioned and Carpeted Homes,
watching theyre big 32-Inch Televisions.

Thank you Gerfat for your thoughts and Blacky for the Link!


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Gerfat
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Member # 45

posted September 12, 2003 09:06     Profile for Gerfat   Email Gerfat     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kane, I have to remind you that Americans were involved with the chilean coup in '73, and thousands of people died and other tens of thousands were tortured, so I don't think americans just think about world's stability... I guess they care when it's their own interest that's involved...
KK, don't you think that USA is trying to be the new "Roman Empire"?

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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 12, 2003 10:39     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gerfat:
KK, don't you think that USA is trying to be the new "Roman Empire"?

I absolutely do. That is what the Agenda is within the current Criminal Administration.

Warcorpse, it is nice of you to point out the dead Communist Empire, but now without
that as a counter-balance in the world there is nothing to stop the Neo-Conservative Agenda.
The American Empire.
Do everything the American way, or be destroyed.
"Your either with us, or against us." -Bush

How convienent it is for Knicker and Kane to spout off about Saddam's ruthless rule
while telling me to "Get Real."
They just dont get it. They are totally unable to see the larger agenda at hand
and to realize that it will be VERY BAD for theyre Children to grow up in a
Global Americana Police State where they are Slaves
to greedy Corporations.

Americans (and British) are destroying themselvs through such blatent stupidity.

Its like Lemmy from Motorhead once said...
"Humanity is like a big bowl of Soup...and we are all going down the drain together."
Thanks to American and British meddling and dreams of Global Conquest, we are all going
down that drain much faster.

So Knicker, Kane...
While you are running around the Earth trying to be the Police and espouse your form
of Judeo-Christian Morality upon the rest of Humanity...
I will be here in a constant effort to undermine your efforts.

Have a nice day.


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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272

posted September 12, 2003 12:19     Profile for KnickerZohnonnof   Email KnickerZohnonnof     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
I absolutely do. That is what the Agenda is within the current Criminal Administration.

Warcorpse, it is nice of you to point out the dead Communist Empire, but now without
that as a counter-balance in the world there is nothing to stop the Neo-Conservative Agenda.
The American Empire.
Do everything the American way, or be destroyed.
"Your either with us, or against us." -Bush

How convienent it is for Knicker and Kane to spout off about Saddam's ruthless rule
while telling me to "Get Real."
They just dont get it. They are totally unable to see the larger agenda at hand
and to realize that it will be VERY BAD for theyre Children to grow up in a
Global Americana Police State where they are Slaves
to greedy Corporations.

Americans (and British) are destroying themselvs through such blatent stupidity.

Its like Lemmy from Motorhead once said...
"Humanity is like a big bowl of Soup...and we are all going down the drain together."
Thanks to American and British meddling and dreams of Global Conquest, we are all going
down that drain much faster.

So Knicker, Kane...
While you are running around the Earth trying to be the Police and espouse your form
of Judeo-Christian Morality upon the rest of Humanity...
I will be here in a constant effort to undermine your efforts.

Have a nice day.


I think you should post at anus.com, the Judeo-Christian slander is a popular one of theirs when they lose arguments. You'll feel right at home I'm certain.

The US/UK dreaming of global conquest??? First, the US cannot afford to and second it couldn't even if it wanted to, not even the mighty US army and navy can stretch that far, the resistance would be insurmountable. And as for the UK? What are you talking about? We've only just given up our empire because the peace deal of WWII saw to it that we gradually surrendered the countries under our control back to the indigionous people. We are in no position to even consider such an idea, militarily or financially. The only agenda I see is an anti republican agenda, nothing else.


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Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey
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Member # 65

posted September 12, 2003 12:34     Profile for Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey   Email Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Knicker - you beat me to the punch! Kula = S.R. Prozak... nah. SRP, while flawed logically, is quite a writer and doesn't rely on the words of others to express his points.

Kula - 'Judeo-Christian morality'??? If you must know, I want to impose my AGNOSTIC morality on the world. Get your facts straight.

Our basic ethical differences are as follows, via an analogy:

A little girl is sexually and physically abused by a 40 year old guy.

I: call for his castration or execution.

You: feel badly for the guy, since he obviously had problems as a kid and might have been abused by his parents. Get him in a 30-day treatment program (funded by all of our tax dollars). The little girl likely deserved what she got because her father makes more than $50K a year, so they had it coming.

Hmm. Sound EXAGGERATED, somewhat? Here's the mirror - take a look...


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Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey
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Member # 65

posted September 12, 2003 13:07     Profile for Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey   Email Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kula will answer you later, WC - he's busy filling his car's tank with the ultra-cheap gas we're enjoying thanks to the oil we plundered in Iraq. You know, the oil we traded all that blood for?
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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272

posted September 12, 2003 14:21     Profile for KnickerZohnonnof   Email KnickerZohnonnof     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warcorpse:
Amazing. Your responses always seem to have a fair amount of "the-sky-is-falling" prophecies. Let me remind you something about the 'dead Communist Empire'. Neo-Cons(as you call them) won the Cold War. The Reagan administration was constantly criticized by the left, they called him dangerous and scary. They opposed him on every front. They ridiculed him as being an idiot for believing the Soviet Union could be toppled. The United States under the conservative adminstration of Reagan won the Cold War and proved the left was wrong about everything.

Funny actually. I remember a similar situation here in the UK during the cold war. The Labour party were hopelessly infiltrated by militants and CND fanatics and criticised the ruling Conservatives at every turn, and in the end they were also proved 100% wrong. Isn't it funny how, after all those years, the present Labour Government has a defence policy that the Tories of the 80's would have been pretty chuffed with?

As much as I hate the cloud of nuclear weapons constantly hanging over us, it has to be said that during the cold war, if we had committed to unilateral nuclear disarmament, as the Labour party wanted to if it were elected in 1983 and 1987, we would have put the security of our country at grave risk. Liberalism has it's place in society, especially when it comes to social and racial issues, but when it comes to defence, Liberals ALWAYS get it 100% wrong. The best example of Liberal defence policy is this: The policy of appeasment by the League Of Nations towards Hitler during the 1930's. Though Neville Chamberlain was a Conservative, he was liberal at heart. He presided over a 'standing down' of our defences, whilst Germany were steadily building theirs, steadily invading country after country. He tried to negotiate a peace with Hitler, but we all know the historic speech Chamberlain made in 1938 after his meeting with Hitler, and Germany's actions in Poland almost immediately after. Chamberlain was fatally exposed and had no alternative but to resign. his liberal attitude to defence lead to the start of WWII. Need I say more?


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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 12, 2003 15:22     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Bunch of War Mongers.

KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL!

That is all you Conservatives know how to do.
Well...keep talking your 100% wrong rhetoric.
Your blatent attempts to question my intelligence and call me names will not
deter me from my mission to expose your political idiocy.

King Kula stands by his words and the Truth.

*9/11 was a grand Hoax on the American people.
*The War is Blood for Oil.
*Republicans (Conservatives) want to kill you.
*America is really the Terrorist State
*There are more Weapons of Mass Destruction in the U.S. than anywhere else on Earth.
*Israeli Zionists control America.
*Americans are largely stupid and inept.

There is, however, one good thing.
We have all met here on VVF and in spite of our vast Political views...we can agree
on what is good Music.

You Conservatives (WC, Kane, Knicker, etc) that love to bash me and try to make me appear insain...
I still like you guys and hope that we can at least be cordial.


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Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey
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Member # 65

posted September 12, 2003 16:33     Profile for Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey   Email Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by King Kula:
*9/11 was a grand Hoax on the American people.

So was the moon landing. Don't forget that. The Earth is flat.

*The War is Blood for Oil.

See my last post in this thread.

*Republicans (Conservatives) want to kill you.

And Democrats want to, what, fuck you? Gotta love partisan politics. Unbending loyalty to one political party compromises basic human ethics. Whether you're a Republican OR a Dem.

*America is really the Terrorist State

Oh brother. How long would it take to counter that wondrous logic? Too long.

*There are more Weapons of Mass Destruction in the U.S. than anywhere else on Earth.

You are absolutely 100% correct! And we're threatening to launch nukes at WHO? We're promising to unleash Botulism on WHO? Oh, right. That's N. Korea and Iraq. Sorry.

*Israeli Zionists control America.

Pff. So wrong. Walt Disney controls the US from his hyperbaric chamber 200 feet below DisneyWorld.

*Americans are largely stupid and inept.

Please notice how you spelled 'insane' in your last post. You may be onto something.


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Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey
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Member # 65

posted September 12, 2003 17:59     Profile for Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey   Email Delightful Little Capuchin Monkey     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Yeah, I'm a warmonger. Kill kill *yawn* kill. The definition of a forum board is that you post an opinion, story, joke, picture and PEOPLE RESPOND. I responded honestly. How is that 'war mongering'? Those asterisk-ed statements of yours are fucking ridiculous. Really. They are. They aren't part of a rational debate. You pump your statements full of dramatic absolutes. And the way you refer to yourself in the third person leads me to believe that these aren't your honest feelings, only part of some dumb character you've created to spice up your mundane day-to-day existence. If so, whatever. It's fun to pretend, I guess. Maybe I'll create a new character for the VVF forum called 'E-rad-e-cay-tor' and wear a cape at my computer chair and post one of my 'genuine true conpiracies' like this:

E-RAD-E-CAY-TOR says VOIVOD DID NOT WRITE DIMENSION HATROSS!!! THEY STOLED DEMOS TAPES FROM DBC AND CALLED THEM THEYRE OWN!!!!

Seriously. That's how ridiculous your posts are to me. I think that the real 'King Kula' is probably a funny guy who I could go to a Voivod show with and maybe shoot the shit about how kick-ass Coroner were over a beer or ten. Maybe.


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guidon
VoivodFan
Member # 137

posted September 13, 2003 04:01     Profile for guidon   Email guidon     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
When reading this thread (and all the others about the U.S.) I can conclude these two things :

Democratic governments don't do foreign politics well, but they can handle domestic social and economic issues.

Republicans run a tough foreign policy and they're not to be messed with, but spend more money than they actually have, so they have to cut back on social issues.


I'm glad I don't have to make a choice between the two.


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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272

posted September 13, 2003 13:20     Profile for KnickerZohnonnof   Email KnickerZohnonnof     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
Bunch of War Mongers.

KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL!

That is all you Conservatives know how to do.
Well...keep talking your 100% wrong rhetoric.
Your blatent attempts to question my intelligence and call me names will not
deter me from my mission to expose your political idiocy.


The political idiocy is to ONLY believe the reports that support your hatred for the Bush administration. We realists understand and accept that, as far as Iraq goes, it could be a lot better and that mistakes have been made, but we also know how much worse it would have been if we had not acted.

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
King Kula stands by his words and the Truth.

Refer to the previous point...

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:

*9/11 was a grand Hoax on the American people.


No it was not. If that is the case then the Bin Laden is also a fictional character and the tapes that Al-Jazeera broadcast recently are obviously fakes by the Zionist conspiracy.

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
*The War is Blood for Oil.

Of course it is, after all you are reaping the benefits of cheap Iraqi oil right now aren't you??

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
*Republicans (Conservatives) want to kill you.

True if your name is Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein.

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
*America is really the Terrorist State

This is obviously true, after all look at the terrorist outrages it has committed...Ermmmm

What it has done is fund terrorist states, Iraq was one of them, but that's just bad foreign policy. Many other Western Governments are guilty of this, mine included.

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
*There are more Weapons of Mass Destruction in the U.S. than anywhere else on Earth.

This is 100% correct, congratulations! BUT...

Are the US, or any other Western Government threatening to launch them at anybody? No. Would Hussein/Bin Laden if they possessed such technology? No, they would just do it without any consideration for the consequences. Therein lies the fundamental difference. I don't like and I am not proud of the fact we are in possession of the most destructive weapons mankind can create, but I know that we will not launch them unless it is an absolute last resort because we know full well the terrible results of a Nuclear strike. Bin Laden and his kind wouldn't even consider the aftermath of launching one, it would just be done and considered a heroic act by the idiots who follow him.

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
*Israeli Zionists control America.

I think that is less true now than at any stage in the last 30 years. Ariel Sharon has had a tough time since 9/11 as far as US/Israeli relations are concerned. They are going to have to make concessions to the Palestinians. The key here is Yasser Arafat. For as long has he is able to continuously interfere with negotiations Israel will get away with more than it deserves because of Arafat's constant failure to deal with Hamas and other extremists.

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
*Americans are largely stupid and inept.

I think this is a very misleading generalisation. Sure, there are stupid and inept Americans, but you can say that about any society. What makes Americans largely stupid if you will is that your news channels are almost totally absent of any foreign news unless it directly involves the US, Iraq for example. Maybe you should rephrase that to read 'Media bosses are stupid and inept'

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
here is, however, one good thing.
We have all met here on VVF and in spite of our vast Political views...we can agree
on what is good Music.

No we cant!

quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
You Conservatives (WC, Kane, Knicker, etc) that love to bash me and try to make me appear insain...
I still like you guys and hope that we can at least be cordial.

I am not Conservative. I have voted Labour all my life, and as long as Labour remain a left-of-centre party as opposed to the near-communist mess of the late 1970's and early 1980's, I will continue to do so. Labour have realised that in Government, when it comes to matters like defence, you cannot be so 'principled' as to unilaterally disarm yourself, as was once their policy on nuclear weapons.

I have never voted Conservative and, unless a seismic shift happens within that party, I probably never will. What would I do in the US? With heavy heart, Republican. Why? Because the Democrats are an incohesive mess at this time, much like Labour after the massive defeat of 1983. As I said in another thread, for as long as they live in denial of the fundamental change that has taken place in the US since 9/11 they will remain divided and in opposition. The independents sound good on the surface but their policy making is almost 'one issue' and this is no good for Government.

And finally Kula, you must realise one thing. We in the West can talk to each other and often thrash out agreements without resorting to violence now because we have experienced the full horror of two massive wars. Moslem extremists, well all extremists actually, still cling to the idea that wars and violence are the most effective way of dispute solving. Sadly, while such a mentality still lingers we HAVE to fight it likewise, whether we like to or not, and trust me, If I thought that it was still possible to resolve Iraq peacefully I would be arguing for it.


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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 23, 2003 11:20     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warcorpse:
In other words...you would only like reality if it were utopia.

Ummm...and i suppost you wouldnt?

Of course everyone wants Utopia!
What, are you nuts???


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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272

posted September 23, 2003 16:27     Profile for KnickerZohnonnof   Email KnickerZohnonnof     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Utopia does not exist.

Utopia cannot exist, not for as long as human beings walk the Earth and a small matter called Darwins theory of evolution still stands.

Nature is war. There is never peace. Wake up Kula, you live in a fantasy world.


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K
VoivodFan
Member # 6

posted September 23, 2003 17:33     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I am not living in a Fantasy World.
I was awnsering a question.

What possesed WC to ask that, i dont know, because never have i even mentioned the word Utopia.

I know full well that Utopia will never happen, Knuckleheadzohnnoff.
Never said that it would, so your implications of my stupidity just make yourself seem more so.


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KnickerZohnonnof
VoivodFan
Member # 272

posted September 23, 2003 19:38     Profile for KnickerZohnonnof   Email KnickerZohnonnof     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by King Kula:
I know full well that Utopia will never happen, Knuckleheadzohnnoff.
Never said that it would, so your implications of my stupidity just make yourself seem more so.


I think the comment was 'Of course everybody wants Utopia' said by yourself?

I don't. Not for a second. Why? Because then evolution stops, the world stagnates and collapses within itself on a spiral of ever-decreasing diversity. Hanker after that all you want, but I think I'd prefer to carry on pushing forwards if you don't mind.


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