Problems are best solved through Diplomacy and Discussion, not Invasion and Blood.
It is an unfortunate reality that the "West" (Namely the U.S. and the U.K.) think that things have to happen on an almost instant level of time.
Whereas, it is the culture and history of those peoples in the Middle East to take a long time to do anything.
Just because the Imperialist Nations yell "Jump, Saddam, Jump!"...doesnt mean he will even begin to jump right away.
Over time...yes.
But not at the speed at which the "West" DICTATES to the rest of the World.

France, Germany and other Countries already had deals with Iraq.
Deals that were brought about through Discussions and Diplomacy.
They were not like the Arrogant, Clumbsy and incredibly Short-Sighted Americans (and British) Governments, who expect every other Nation on Earth to bow to theyre wishes instantly.

So...i say...Let Saddam and the Soverign Nation of Iraq alone.

Targeted Assasinations are the way to solve problems of brutal Dictators (like Saddam, his Sons, Bush, Clinton, Hitler, etc...), NOT through wholesale "Shock and Awe" Mass-Murder bombing of Cities.

What the hell are you talking about!

Isn't 13 years long enough for him to comply and communicate with all the diplomacy he has been afforded????

Isn't 24 years of non-stop internal terrorism against the Kurds and Shi-ites in Iraq enough????

Isn't the colossal wealth he accumulated entirely at the expense of his own people enough to make you sick to the stomach????

But more chillingly, what do you think he would have achieved militarily if the US/UK hadn't persisted in keeping him under some sort of control?

You are unreal Kula, that sort of stance is exactly why terrorism against the West is growing because if we do not show that we have the backbone to stand up for the rights of normal people who just want an ordinary life free from despotic scum like Hussein, the confidence of these individuals will grow and eventually we would have to pay the ultimate price for such complacency if we continued with diplomacy.

Diplomacy does have it's place, that is without dispute. This is one situation where every diplomatic channel has been tried and exhausted. Saddam had many, many chances. He chose for it to be like this by his evasive tactics and constant flouting of successive resolutions intended to rein him in. There comes a time when the talking has to stop and the action has to begin. This situation is that time, sovereign state or otherwise.

It is because of U.S. meddling and heavy-handed bullyism around the world for so long...THAT is why it is hated so.
America has brought it upon itself.

I tell you yet again...
Targeted Assasinations are the way to solve problems of brutal Dictators,
NOT through wholesale "Shock and Awe" Mass-Murder bombing of Cities.

Yes, Warcorpse. Dead Brain Cells (DBC). lol!

I just dont know how much more clear all the evidence has to be!
It could be a big stick and knock you guys in the head, but you would just sit there and say...
"Was i just hit in the head with a big stick?"
Then you would go on...non-believing of the event that just befell you.

Oh well. What else can i say.

The way the media is here, if any of this had a shred of substance we would see it in at least three papers that I can think of. One that has opposed this war from the start, and the other two who oppose Labour and would print anything that had at least some substance in it if it could at least inflict some harm on the Labour Government. What have I seen? Not very much of real substance really, apart from the 'dodgy dossier' episode and of course the tragic Kelly debacle.

But more significantly I have not seen any news of any kind that even hints at 9/11 being anything other than a blatant act of terrorism by moslem extremists. All that I have seen that tries to prove otherwise reeks of political posturing, or perhaps anti Bush propaganda may be a better term.

I repeat something I wrote in other threads:

The only place you are going to see this information is in the UNDERGROUND PRESS.
You will NEVER see much on those Mainstream outlets!
No, Knicker, not even the ones that are Anti-Labour.
Why dont you check out who gives those outlets you speak of, a License to Operate!
You will see...it is the Government. (The FCC, or the British equiv.)
So...even though some of them may "Dog" the Government for things it does, NONE are going to Cross the Line and report the TRUTH IN DETAIL of what the Government is really doing!
If they did that, they would have theyre License to operate pulled...or be Fined heavily!
The only place where Information is not controled by the Government...YET...is the Internet!
That is the place to find the Truth about things.
Now, just because a good portion of the net is full of crap, doesnt mean that it all is.
So dont even try that arguement.

Knicker...you WILL NOT SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT 9/11 IN THE PRINT, RADIO, OR TV MEDIA PERIOD!!!
Neither will you about the Wars!!!

Please get those facts through your head and understand.

Here is a Website i go to EVERY DAY for some of my News: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

Now...I want to make a point here.
While that Websites assimilates common knowledge and News Stories from a whole host of different places...I am smart enough and have lived enough years to know what is just crap and what is real.

One side point i wish to make is that at least here in the U.S....more and more stories are popping up about the mess the U.S. has made of the situation in Iraq.
(Now the U.S. wants U.N. help to clean up theyre mess.)
MAINSTREAM News sites at that!
Even die-hard REPUBLICAN BIASED News outlets like FOX are beginning to show some of the truth on Iraq.
I guess all those Americans coming back in body bags are starting to effect people.

Now, back to your reposted 9/11 comments.
I think that you forsee way too much doom and gloom for the Bush Administration should the reality of 9/11 be known on a wholesale level.
In fact...i had a good laugh!
The U.N would cease to exist??? hahahahaha!
Comeon, Knicker!...Really!

Many a horrible thing has been done by Governments and Rulers upon theyre own people...
in order to achieve an Economic or Monatary goal.
This has been the case of History.
Why on Earth would you think that here in the year 2003,
it would be any different for us, and our own Governments?
After all, Knicker, we have the most powerfull Countries in the World, right?
Look at History and you will see that EVERY Empire, Power or Principality have harmed, censored,
or controled theyre own people...for the Ideals of those in charge.

Read that above Paragraph again and understand it.

Only in the Underground, does the truth lie.
Not "Conspiracies" as your own Government purposly labels it. (Name-calling.)

I think, Knicker, that if as many Citizens of Earth had the TRUTH in Media...as they do Government controled TV, Radio and Papers...then there might be an uprising like you say. -Maybe.

However, untill then, 90% of all Humanity will never hear it, know it, or like you..believe it.

And thats the way it is.

You need to contact your brain vendor and get them to remove the BushGW32 virus. It has a terminal bug whereby everything you read about the negative side of events becomes the truth, irrespective of the actualty. your reaction to the events of 9/11 is a classic symptom of this virus. Please have this done soonest, then once you have installed the security update, re-evaluate the current situation.

Seriously though, the ramifications of what is alleged would be seismic if it were the case. This is not a typical assassination job, this is the murder of 3,000 people from all sorts of backgrounds, religions, everything. This was totally indiscriminate. It affected every major economy on the planet and we are still paying! You cannot just brush this off! It is the worst terrorist act in history and if the country's own Government was culpable it would be in very serious trouble from within its own borders and out in the wider world. And yes, since the US is the largest player within the UN I do think it is a very high probability it would fold under those circumstances. This isn't doom and gloom, you cannot trivialise the deaths of 3,000 people, especially if the powers that be had a hand in it!

I know that what i have posted in the past is very controversial and many would not agree.
That is fine. I dont expect everyone to agree with the things i have posted, as well as
my own radical personal views.
I fully expect to be attacked by people who havent a clue about reality and follow the
party line.
Theyre verbal assaults and name-calling, quite frankly, amuses me because i used to
believe things the way they did.
It is unfortunate that they have yet to see that they are the victims of brainwashing.
Raised that way.
It is difficult to "De-Program" someone once they have been led astray for so long.
Just as it is difficult to De-Program a Christian and open theyre eyes to the truth
about the myth they worship every Sunday.

I am posting less in this area of VVF now.
It is quite clear that the Admin. is trying to provoke me through the blatent attacks
of Clinton and through another poster's
attempts to make me look foolish.

I think that the majority who read this area can see who is taking the high road
in this situation.
I know what the truth is about these things.
If the truth upsets you into questioning my intelligence and calling me names...so be it.

quote:

---

It is difficult to "De-Program" someone once they have been led astray for so long

---

Bush did not plan the 9/11 events. Neither did Clinton. On another thread i mentioned that all Presidents are merely Actors....selling agenda's to the gullible Americans (and British).
The Americanizing of the World for Corporate gain...is the agenda. It has been going on for many many many years. Making progress little by little.
The agenda also goes along with whatever Israel demands of the U.S.
If Israel can get America to fight its Wars for it...why wouldnt they?
It saves Jewish lives and isnt very expensive!
Let all the American and British boys go die for Corporate and Israel goals.

It is good that at least you acknowledge the 9/11 Operation CAN be done.
Fact of the matter, it HAS been done.
The people who stand to gain tremendously from it are Israel, American and British Corporate, Political and Military interests.
Certainly...none of us here back home are gaining anything at all!
We shovel out more and more money of our Tax dollars....for THEYRE Goals! NOT OURS!

How much good do you think all those Billions would have done to fix the Infrastructure here at home? A LOT!
Meanwhile Schools and Roads and The Electrical Grid has gone to shit...because of the fake "War on Terrorism."

Americans need to get the fuck out of....and stay out of other Countries affairs. Pure and simple!
Let Israel under the helm of Sharon the Butcher fight its own Wars.

America will not win this "War on Terrorism."
NEVER...EVER...IN A MILLION YEARS!
The bodies have only just begun to trickle back. It is unfortunate that those guys are dying so that Haliburton and other Companies can get rich...and Israel can save theyre Money.

I stand by what i have said concerning 9/11 and how you all have been so fooled.
Its a good thing that there are others like me who are willing to question the events and Motives...and expose who the REAL Terrorists are!

(Notice how i typed all that without stooping to Kane and Knickers level?)

Deal with it, if you can't stand the heat and all that good stuff...

I think if you trawl though the vast majority of what I have written you will find precious little 'name calling', and what there is I would class as kindergarden compared to the kind of stuff my social circle kick around. But the truth is if you make ridiculous claims expect to be ridiculed, and if you make statements that are dangerously naiive (ref the holocaust slander) then expect a verbal hiding.

I stand by it 100%.

You people think everything i say is shit...well thats just tough.
I feel pity for you.

I wont post in this area again.

Now you can have your way with your propagandized minds...
pat each other on the back & say "Nice going!"

Warcorpse...you may continue with your FoxNews praising and Clinton Bashing.
The rest of you can continue to count your dead.
All the while thinking that your doing a good thing.

Anybody need any Ted Nugent Tickets?
Be sure to sing your National Anthems loudly and salute your Flags!
This is the West, damnitt! And we are better than the rest of the Planet Earth!
We have Jesus and McDonalds and WalMart and Guns, God & Government!
It doesnt get any better than here!
Lets make bigger, better Bombs to blow up whoever the President and Israel hate this week!
Lets go kill some Brown people! Its the kosher thing to do!

Arrogant, Clumbsy and incredibly Short-Sighted.
Welcome to the West.

While you guys are busy Saluting the Flag and hugging each other...I will be somewhere else.

That was the dumbest post I have ever seen. If you seriously think this is about bashing brown people then you are so far wide of the mark it's not even funny. None of my posts talk about such things, and I have never EVER made such references. You need to retract such statements and come to your senses.

If you are so capable of 'shooting holes' in our arguments then why is it you haven't...Or better still why is it that YOUR 'hypotheses' are the ones exposed as full of holes? I shall tell you what I think...

You are so disaffected by the Republican stewardship of the country that you will grasp at absolutley anything that portrays it in a bad light, regardless of the small matter of whether it has any factual basis. This is not a good start. There were many things about the 18 years of Conservative rule I hated but in all honesty I don't think they were any more corrupt than the present Labour Governemnt. I just didn't agree with many of their policies because the poorest/disadvantaged always suffered, and a particular vendetta was waged against the mining communities, some of which have never recovered. Looking at the US there are many things that the Republicans are up to on other fronts, especially with regard to the US approach to environmental issues, that bother me immensely. I see no policies in the near future that will address the fact that Americans use about 28% of the World's total energy consumption; the world's single largest user by some margin. Not bad for 350,000,000 people, or just over 5% of the World's population. It bothers me he is either proposing to open or is in the process of opening up areas like Alaska for oil exploration, overturning previous legislation forbidding such action, which has potetially massive implications for the wildlife there. I see little in the way of a recovery plan for the deficit being run up. More worryingly I don't see a very coherent economic policy in general to be honest. That's from this side of the pond. There is plenty to be concerned about. George W. Bush in general worries me.

> I hope you'll forget all this and re-elect me in 2004
>
> I attacked and took over two countries.
> I spent the U.S. surplus.
> I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not
> easy!).
> I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12
> month period.
> I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock
> market.
> In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on
> vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).
> After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over
> the worst security failure in US history.
> I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in
US
> history.
> In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.
> I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other
> president in US history.
> I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month
> period.
> I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any
> president in US history.
> I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since
> the advent of TV.
> I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any
> other US president in history.
> I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to
> intervene when corruption was revealed.
> I cut health care benefits for war veterans.
> I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take
> to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for
> protest against any person in the history of mankind.
> I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
> I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US
> history.
> Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history.
> (The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker
> named after her.)
> I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union
> simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.
> I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in
> any country in the history of the world.
> I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military
> occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the
> United Nations and the vast majority of the international community.
> I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history
> of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one
> letter away from BS).
> I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases,
more
> than any other president in US history (Ronnie was tough to beat, but I did
> it!!).
> I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove
> the US from the Human Rights Commission.
> I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove
the
> US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
> I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of
> congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
> I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
> I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default
> no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
> I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election
> inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
> I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign
> donations.
> The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best
> friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in
> world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
> I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US
> history.
> I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and
> then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1).
> I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year
> made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest
> diplomatic failure in US and world history).
> I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of
> Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and
> stability.
> I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government
> contracts.
> I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who
> violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations
> bidding for gov't contracts.
> I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any
> other president in US history.
> I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than
> two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
> I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of
> war.
> I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.
> All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my
> fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
> All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt
> companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
> All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the
> board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
> Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public
> energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

> I hope you'll forget all this and re-elect me in 2004