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Author Topic: How the War will run
Emlyn K Helicopter
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Member # 44

posted February 07, 2003 09:48     Profile for Emlyn K Helicopter   Email Emlyn K Helicopter     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
h - The interview was very enlightening. Tony Benn has been criticised for not asking blunt questions like 'Why did you gas the Kurds?' - but then no one asked that of Churchill in 1940 did they? And Benn didn't ask specifically about giving weapons inspectors more access, or allowing U2 planes over Iraqi airspace.

The questions were more general and diplomatic - remember that Benn has been an active politician since 1950 so he knows a thing or two about diplomacy - giving Sadam free reign to give somewhat Fidel Castro-length answers.

Sadam appeared (via interpreter) to be very articulate and very clued-up about The Big Picture. He stated that he belived 'Zionist Elements' (i.e. Sharron-centric Israel) were using their considerable influence in the US administration to spread discord in the Middle East region, allied to the fact the Bush is in the pocket of Oilmen (would anyone here care to deny that?) - who wish to gain control of Iraqi oil reserves which, if/when fully exploited, would account for over half the worlds oil production.

Control over the worlds oil production would, in Sadams' view, give America control over the economy of China, the only real threat to US Supreamacy this coming generation.

Now, Sadam flatly refuted that he has WofMD which Colin Powells evidence might appear to be at odds with, however shakey, but it does shed light on two things.

Firstly, to say that Sadam Hussain is a madman intent on hurting US interests is a falicy. He is no foaming madman - however your tabloid media presents it. On what basis or evidence do you deem him a madman? Because Dubya says he is? A special CNN report? And CNN is impartial, is it?

As for harming US interests: US interests (not your interests, I mean The Bush Administration's) seem to be to place the US on top of the world and keep it there by any means, including killing anyone in the way, and that includes internally. How does that benifit the rest of the world? It would benifit me in England because my leader has fallen in line, but it's not going to help Laos or Cameroon, and it sure as hell won't help Palastinians.

Do I want Sadam removed from power? No, its none of my business. Do I want the president of Turkey to be removed from power because of their treatment to the Kurds? Nope. Horrible business, but what right have I got?

Do I want to remove Bush from power? Yes I fucking do, and if it came to it I know which side I'd join.

And Mez, I agree that if the world followed the principles of George Washington it would be a far better place, but these fine principles have nothing to do with Dubya.


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Mezcalhead
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posted February 07, 2003 10:06     Profile for Mezcalhead   Email Mezcalhead     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Our media??? Hahahahaha, our media is totally against this war and absolutely love Sadaam. Especially CNN.

The reasons for this war are two-fold: The guy is nuts(he's a great conman, like most dictators) and kills his own people and he has dangerous weapons and was in the process of making even more dangerous weapons.

Let's take a look at this, a good article in a sea of disinformation:

"So what does the past tell us? First, we should not listen to hysteria. Noam Chomsky spent an autumn warning of "millions" of dead to come in Afghanistan. Wrong. More respected and often reasonable commentators such as William Pfaff ("The utility of the bombing is hard to defend. It was believed able to bring down the Taliban government, but that is not happening.") and R. W. Apple ("Afghanistan as Vietnam" / "Signs of progress are sparse") assured us that after a few days of fighting in Afghanistan we were in a quagmire. Wrong again.

For much of the fall of 2001, I listened to and often debated a number of commentators who pontificated about the high peaks and the "Afghan winter," Ramadan, the Russian and British empires, the Arab Street — about almost anything but the respective history and efficacy of the American and Taliban military forces. And rather than being contrite about their error in predicting American slaughter in Afghanistan, our critics have moved on to Iraq to find renewed opportunity to vent their almost religious cultural pessimism.

Recently Hans von Sponeck, the former U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Iraq, assured us that the U.S. " will lose the war. This will be World War Three." And after warning us that there is little chance of a swift and easy victory in Iraq, Immanuel Wallerstein of Yale predicts that the "most likely" scenario is "a long exhausting war." But even that may be too optimistic, since "losing, incredible as it seems (but then it seemed so in Vietnam too) is a plausible outcome, one chance in three."

Instead of listening to this dejection, we should examine the 30-year record of the Iraqi army in a series of wars against the Kurds in the 1960s and '70s, the Yom Kippur fighting against Israel, the surprise attacks on Iran and Kuwait, and the first Gulf War, as well as several barbaric actions against the Shiites.

True, the Iraqi army has shown flashes of dash and organization — it seemed energetic during the first few weeks of its 1988 counterattack into Iran and the 1990 assault on Kuwait. Military analysts, perhaps too charitably, have asserted that the Republican Guard, which was nearly annihilated on February 26-7, 1991, at least held firm, even as many of its tanks were incinerated — reminiscent of the earlier armored brigades that kept charging even as they were obliterated by the outnumbered Israelis on the Golan Heights.

But despite displays of personal courage, the Iraqis as a rule have not fought well when confronted by opponents who were not weak or in disarray, as were the shocked Iranians and Kuwaitis. In earlier Kurdish wars, sporadic attacks against Israel, and the first Gulf War, Iraqi performance was generally dismal. And even the sudden infusion of French planes and the training in France of Iraqi aircrews did not mean air superiority over weak Iranian pilots.

In all these wars, command was uneven, morale low, flexibility and initiative of officers uninspiring, weapons often poorly maintained and not employed as they were designed to be used — the wages of a dictatorial society, where tribalism, not meritocracy, governs promotions, pay is low, enlisted military service earns little status, men fight out of fear rather than with a sense of freedom and initiative, and technology is imported rather than the natural dividend of a modern approach to research, development, and manufacturing.

That the whole Arab world translates fewer books each year from English than does Greece really does affect how well its armies use their purchased advanced weapons. Military parasitism works well enough with small rifles, terrorist bombs, and rockets; but with large assets such as planes, tanks, and ships their proper deployment, maintenance, and optimum tactical use all require a preexisting infrastructure that is not so easily bought or copied.

The geopolitical situation does not favor the Iraqi military either. There will be no Soviet or Chinese advisers fighting for Saddam Hussein; nor are nuclear-armed patrons threatening us with Armageddon should his armies collapse. For all the talk of jihad, even zealots have no desire to die for the Iraqi gulag. Privately, those in the "Arab Street" are mostly angry at us, the infidel, for preempting what they themselves would like to have done.

In contrast, the United States during the last two decades — in the first Gulf War, Panama, Serbia, and Afghanistan — has shown itself adept in almost every aspect of difficult and challenging operations: excellent morale, flexibility in command, and superb use and maintenance of sophisticated, and always evolving, weapons. And when it has had problems — tactical confusion in Grenada and placing unarmored troops into urban ambushes like Mogadishu — American troops nevertheless fought superbly.

Add to the equation the recent history of American-Iraqi fighting in 1991, when hundreds of thousands of Iraqi conscripts surrendered without firing a shot. American soldiers without much battle experience did more damage to the Iraqi military in 100 hours than Iran did in eight years. Such memories are still deeply branded into the Iraqi military. Since 1991, Anglo-American aircrews have owned over two-thirds of Iraqi airspace — and know more about it than do Saddam's pilots themselves. This time the war is not over a dictator's withdrawal from Kuwait, but the transformation of an autocracy into consensual government that will promise that its country is no longer a haven for frightening weapons and terrorists.

In 1990 Saddam believed that he could fight a conventional war, wrongly surmising that the terror and attrition that worked once in Iran would frighten a U.S. wary after Vietnam. This time he knows that a "mother of all battles" is impossible, but instead worries about what he saw in Serbia and Afghanistan. He takes some confidence only in the American surprise and shock in Mogadishu and on September 11, and wobbliness in Europe, but is still not so unhinged to believe that an Iraqi military victory is possible.

In sum, in a strict military sense, if the Iraqi army — there is no real navy or air force — fights, it will do so as poorly as it has in the past against any good force that it cannot surprise. But we should also remember that in fighting a series of wars, Saddam Hussein has shown a preference for the unconventional and even nightmarish: taking human hostages during the prelude to the 1991 war; putting women and children into the bunkers of the military elite; launching scuds into Israel, Teheran, and Saudi Arabia; torching the Kuwaiti oilfields; sending gas shells and high-voltage electrical currents against the Iranians; and suddenly slaughtering Shiites and Kurds once American officials allowed Iraqis to fly armed aircraft immediately following the armistice.

We should anticipate, then, that a few scuds (which are not supposed to exist) will be sent into Israel as well as launched into Kuwait. Chemical and biological weapons (which, again, are not supposed to exist) may be attached to missiles or shot out of some artillery shells at initial marching columns. Like the scud that hit American troops in Saudi Arabia, some Americans could fall.

And Saddam Hussein may well resort to torching or sabotaging his own oil fields, mining the streets of Baghdad, and even executing many of his own people, as in 1991. If there are no foreigners to serve as human shields, his own citizens may do well enough to deflect shrapnel from his generals — to be broadcast back immediately by the epigones of Peter Arnett. The al Qaeda-Iraqi liaisons (which are not supposed to exist) might have made predetermined arrangements for hitting Americans at home with gas or germs. Saddam Hussein, environmentalists now forget, created the worst oil slick in history — a 200,000-barrel-a-day, 240-square-mile mess — to foul the coast of Saudi Arabia. And he may try again. These are all frightening scenarios, but they will still not alter the military realities that will ensure Saddam Hussein's quick demise without great loss of life.

If we ponder the recent past, I would think that all of Iraq outside Baghdad will be overrun in a matter of days — to the cheers of most of his citizenry. The capitol will fall later, but the timing of its liberation will be calibrated on mostly humanitarian rather than military considerations — American caution over walking into a possibly booby-trapped city and the need to avoid killing captives of Saddam Hussein. So if it comes to war, we will win and most likely win quickly. We will be safer — and Iraq immediately a better place — for our efforts. And we can at least say that we did not leave a madman with frightening weapons in an age of mass murder for our children to deal with.

Culture — not race, not nationality, not numbers, not chance — more often determines the long-term efficacy of a military. That being said, in the here-and-now morale and élan play a great role in every particular campaign and hinge on the nature of the cause and the mission. In the present war, our military fights better than Saddam Hussein's, but we also seek liberation rather than conquest, and wish to cleanse a country of dangerous weapons, terrorists, and a bloodthirsty dictator.

Yet no one would believe these lessons of the past if they watched the current television commercials or listened to Nelson Mandela or the doomsday warnings of our actors, novelists, professors, and political activists — all of whom assure us that we are immoral or promise that we will fail miserably should we invade Iraq.

Yet remember, this is also an age of untruth and boutique piety. "Internationalism" and "multilateralism" can mean that Libya, which butchered the people of Chad, adjudicates human rights; that Syria, which practiced genocide, sits on the "Security" Council, and that the two gassers, Iran and Iraq, discuss protocols of illegal weaponry — even as the Nobel Peace prize goes to the terrorist Yasser Arafat, to a Korean statesman who bribed a mass murderer for the chance at a summit, and to an ex-president who was praised by his benefactors precisely for criticizing his own government at a time of crisis and war.

Strange and depressing times.

So let us trust in reason and history, rather in hysteria and self-righteous bluster.


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Adolf
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posted February 07, 2003 11:20     Profile for Adolf   Email Adolf     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
The war is about oil and zionist interests, in short.

But I am not going to cry for the dead arabs in Iraq. No, I won't be doing that. Nor will I cry for the overthroned Saddam. No, I won't do that. He is quite intelligent and able manipulator. No doubt he has been doing his best to manufacture weapons despite of UN resolutions.

However he is not really a danger to America. To Israel maybe someday. The War on Terrorism should have targeted Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq if it was really about that - remember where most of the WTC bombers came from. That land is a haven for religious fanatics. Iraq is actually one of the most secular countries in the region.


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nia
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posted February 07, 2003 12:14     Profile for nia   Email nia     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Funnily enough, I always thought I would be the first person here to be called the c-word. (Manipulator, I'm going to wash your mouth out with soap!)
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Gorf
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Member # 119

posted February 07, 2003 12:44     Profile for Gorf   Email Gorf     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Along with the Information Awareness Dept. run by ex-Iran Contra criminal John Pointdexter, this Bush Dictatorship is the most Totalitarian regime since Stalin.

Anyone read about the stories of the U.S. exporting suspects in custody to foreign countries in order to be tortured?
Its true!

That along with the fixed election, the government controlled media, and the perpetual war propaganda makes us the 1984 capital of the world.


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manipulator
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posted February 07, 2003 13:08     Profile for manipulator   Email manipulator     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
i guess i will have to spank you nosomuch !


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Adolf
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posted February 07, 2003 14:02     Profile for Adolf   Email Adolf     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gorf:
That along with the fixed election, the government controlled media, and the perpetual war propaganda makes us the 1984 capital of the world.

Government controlled media? I've heard USA's media is mostly controlled by some special groups, but by government? Can you give any pointers to this.


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El Indio
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Member # 18

posted February 09, 2003 17:45     Profile for El Indio   Email El Indio     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I hate to say this but it looks like all of you people have overlooked one very important factor and that is ever since about the late 1970's Washington D.C. and the rest of the United States has been secretly controlled by Reverend Sun Myung Moon and his Unification Church! After all, Reverend Moon owns the Washington Times which incidently is a very conservative newspaper. For many politicians, good press coverage means votes and this is how the Reverand took control. That thing about Area 51 and the Aliens is merely a cover. All the U.S. is doing right now is waiting for the Reverand to receive another Divine Revelation from God which will show him how the west should proceed in the middle east... No foolin either! Don't believe me about the Washington Times? Checkout the following link to the Unification Church's website and view the Reverand moon's projects page!

For a good time...


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Gorf
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Member # 119

posted February 10, 2003 17:09     Profile for Gorf   Email Gorf     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
No, its controlled by the NSA, the DIA, the CIA and the FBI.

Big Brother is watching you.

Some old conspiracy links Adolph....
http://www.projectcensored.org/stories/2001/3.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/cnn-n06.shtml
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=229618&group=webcast
http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=229433 http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=229708


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Mezcalhead
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Member # 26

posted February 11, 2003 15:21     Profile for Mezcalhead   Email Mezcalhead     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
I think this says it all:

The Difference Between The Liberal and Conservative Debate Over The War On
Terrorism Question:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children.
Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner
and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock
40 cal. and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he
reaches you and your family.
What do you do?

______________________________________________________________________
Liberal Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man
look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is provoking
him to attack us? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What
about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife
out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation?
Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want
to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his
knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
This is so confusing! I need time to debate this with friends for a few days
to come to a conclusion.


______________________________________________________________________
Conservative Answer:

BANG!


______________________________________________________________________
Texan's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Click..... (sounds of clip being ejected and fresh clip installed)

Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"

Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too....."

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
Click.

Daughter: "Nice grouping Daddy!"

Husband: "Darling, could you check your purse for a fresh clip? I seem to
have left my other two in the truck with the shotguns."

- - - - - - - - - - - - -


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nia
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posted February 11, 2003 15:33     Profile for nia   Email nia     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote

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TheHade
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posted February 12, 2003 07:23     Profile for TheHade   Email TheHade     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
How can any true VOIVOD-fan who knows their lyrics and spent some thime thinking about them be conservative and / or in favor of this war? This is a contradiction too wide for me to grasp!
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K
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Member # 6

posted February 12, 2003 08:01     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Not to defend Mez or Warcorpse any, but Fans of any Band dont have to completely agree with the Lyrics and Ideals...to be fans of theyre Music.

And yes....it is that way in Texas, Mezcalhead.
I also noticed that the Clip in that Glock
is the new 8-round one (With one in the Chamber = 9 Shots), instead of the old outlawed 15 round one.


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h
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posted February 12, 2003 08:09     Profile for h   Email h     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
They should make a new ruling that all wars should be fought without weapons, bare knuckle style. That'd be great to watch on tv, or even join in! The whole world having just one big punch up until everyone's knackered and decides to go down the pub for a swift pint until we can remember what the fuck it was we were arguing about in the first place.
And put Bush, Blair and Sandman in the middle of it so I can have a couple of digs at those cunts and all!

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Slaytanic
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Member # 28

posted February 12, 2003 08:38     Profile for Slaytanic   Email Slaytanic     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warcorpse:
Especially the lyrics and ideals held by some of my other favorite bands like Cannibal Corpse, Deicide and S.O.D.. I don't have time to go out and "Kill the Christians" or fill up a "Skull full of maggots".

Not to mention that, since I don't live by the sword, I don't wanna "Die By The Sword"!

On the other hand, to "Kill The Assholes" would be tempting...


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Mezcalhead
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Member # 26

posted February 12, 2003 09:41     Profile for Mezcalhead   Email Mezcalhead     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Kula, now how do you know that about the Glocks??? hehehehe..., need some of those outlawed clips??? Next package.....

The Hade asks a good question. Though VV doesn't really have too many songs with overt political messages(couple on KT-antiwar)its pretty obvious they are leftists as most great artists have been in the last 100 years. In fact, I find this outlook on life more entertaining and actually expect it from the artistic community. You know the whole "against the status-quo thing". But please do not assume all conservatives are like Rush Limbaugh. My main problem with the left centers on the role of government in people's lives. I believe that in most cases less government is better. Less government = more individual freedom. And I'm all for freedom, baby!


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Cockroach
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Member # 115

posted February 12, 2003 10:12     Profile for Cockroach   Email Cockroach     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
"Search for freedom, and you will be slave to your desires. Search for discipline, and you will find your freedom"

The Coda

Sorry, read too much from the DUNE-sequel of Frank Herbertz


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manipulator
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Member # 12

posted February 12, 2003 14:24     Profile for manipulator   Email manipulator     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
http://www.sunshine-project.org/
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nia
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posted February 12, 2003 14:34     Profile for nia   Email nia     Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
h, I really like your 'duke it out' idea. I think the U.S. would fare better if they sent in Tito Oritz though instead of Bush.
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LyKcantropen
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Member # 162

posted February 12, 2003 14:43     Profile for LyKcantropen   Email LyKcantropen     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by h:
They should make a new ruling that all wars should be fought without weapons, bare knuckle style. That'd be great to watch on tv, or even join in! The whole world having just one big punch up until everyone's knackered and decides to go down the pub for a swift pint until we can remember what the fuck it was we were arguing about in the first place.
And put Bush, Blair and Sandman in the middle of it so I can have a couple of digs at those cunts and all!

Sometimes it's too obvious you're British, h.
Your idea of war sounds a bit like England fans at the World Cup.
Eng-er-lund! Eng-er-lund! Eng-er-lund!


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St. Michael
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Member # 36

posted February 12, 2003 19:25     Profile for St. Michael   Email St. Michael     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Hmmm. Damn I hate politics.

We'll I predict America will overtake Iraq.
Or at least occupy Iraq. I mean, look at the killing technology waiting in gulf. Love it, or hate it, it looks like Bush spent all this money to get it over there. It will happen even if we like it or not. The thing is... Many people like you and me will die. It's not a Hollywood movie. The shit will go down..

And then there is N.Korea...
Times are getting scary my friends.
Who knows what the winds will bring these days...

St.


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TheHade
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Member # 109

posted February 13, 2003 03:43     Profile for TheHade   Email TheHade     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warcorpse:
Especially the lyrics and ideals held by some of my other favorite bands like Cannibal Corpse, Deicide and S.O.D.. I don't have time to go out and "Kill the Christians" or fill up a "Skull full of maggots".

Of course I didn't mean the exact meanings expressed by lyrics (most of the bands don't live that way as well) but what's beneath and beyond them. And VOIVOD requires more than average thinking to figure these things out. So I think if someone takes his time with this kind of music they must have more marbles in their attic than certain basically illiterate members of some Texan oil clan. There are certain views on life and ideals that are deeply buried within VOIVOD's music and lyrics and expressed in many interviews that are the exact opposite of this scum's poor excuse for thinking. That's why I just cannot imagine somebody with dumb redneck-attitude really digging VOIVOD. But maybe that's just wishful thinking ...


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manipulator
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posted February 13, 2003 05:00     Profile for manipulator   Email manipulator     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
Let the wind blow through your heart
For wild is the wind, wild is the wind

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Black Guard
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posted February 13, 2003 07:24     Profile for Black Guard   Email Black Guard     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
USA's outer politic is full of SHIT. It makes me sick.
All you smartass warmongers should learn what war means and what is causes to people.

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K
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Member # 6

posted February 13, 2003 07:52     Profile for K   Email K     Send New Private Message   Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote
lol! Manip!

"Reap the Wild Wind" - Ultravox (Love that 80's song)


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